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  #31  
Old 04-25-2012
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Re: Over Powered in 30 knots?

Would a reefed main alone be something to consider in those conditions? I ask because my boat handled very well with a full main alone in 20+ knots. I have sailed with only a 110 jib a while back in 25+ to practice some and I moved along ok but as the OP mentions I had trouble tacking (just off and on) when sailing headwind. I done the 270s when I needed and it worked out ok. I would say a reefed main alone would have done much better on my particular boat. I had a rudder break on me once in 20 knot winds sailing a broad reach and having to hard port often to remain on course. This was using full main and 110 (probably too much sail but I was under 10 degree heel) and I think back on this and believe this definitely would have been a situation to use only a head sail alone. I have learned a lot since then and it seems my boat likes a main alone when sailing upwind in higher winds and a head sail alone when sailing downwind. I also learned to let my boat have a little bit of freedom, if I am having to force it to do something, something is not setup right. So a fully reefed main alone, or just a head sail, or it depends on the boat, and maybe skipper and crew too?
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  #32  
Old 04-25-2012
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Re: Over Powered in 30 knots?

Haha wearing ship does sound much better than chicken gybe, but one is more accurate than the other .

This mayto be obvious, but by keeping the jib sheeted in until well through the eye of the wind, once through it the backed jib will push the bow into a tack. Multihulls and racers know this trick well. Most of us are too worried about getting set up for the tack, and its usually not necessary in a keelboat, but it really works esp if u need to emergency tack.

Wow Idk how I never thought to heave-to to tie in a reef. Only one poster suggested it, good advice steveg353. We really need to practice such ancient, well proven techniques. I tied in a reef in 20 knots two weeks ago, by dropping all sail and bouncing all over the place, not seamanlike to be sure. I wish I had thought to heave to...

Last edited by peterchech; 04-25-2012 at 08:37 AM.
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  #33  
Old 04-25-2012
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Re: Over Powered in 30 knots?

Going out in 30kts., gusting to 40kts. in a 26 ft. boat in choppy water.....really? You guys are tough. I have yet to see anyone intentionally go out in such conditions in this area. (And why would you want to anyway....you're just going to beat up the boat and yourself?) Now that you've discussed the sailing pretty much in detail, please discuss docking and undocking without damaging the boat in these conditions. Don't spare details... this is a skill that I really want to learn (high wind docking and undocking, especially with crosswind).
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  #34  
Old 04-25-2012
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Re: Over Powered in 30 knots?

NCC320, sounds like the best advice yet. I could be just as crazy since I am going out in 25knots with a 22ft boat. Exactly why I lost a rudder so far but I needed to experience it at least a couple times in case im ever caught out for some reason. At least I can say been there. I sometimes worry I have out grown my boat since I have pushed it to its limits more then once. At the same time, since I have learned so much more, lately I have only been out in under 15 knot winds. Good thing is its like that around here 80% of the time. In the end its just not worth it going out in that running the risk of breaking things not to mention hull stress. I could not imagine the nightmare of losing a mast.
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Old 04-25-2012
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Re: Over Powered in 30 knots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
Took out the house yesterday on the St. Johns. 20 knots steady, gusts to 35 maybe 40. Good sailing weather.

The wind is blowing out of the NorthWest. I head out through the bridge and decide to run with the wind for awhile. I have only my standard jib up.

The jib is up and the tiller is pushed hard over ...

So, my question is why was I unable to tack back home? we were never in any real danger. I just couldn't make the boat go where I wanted despite all my best efforts. Any ideas?
The center of pressure of the "standard jib" is far forward of the center of lateral resistance (keel, rudder et al) hence the yacht wants to turn down wind. To resist this you had the rudder hard over, likely well more than 45º hence you're attempting to drag a big rectalinear plate through the water. With all the drag of the rudder, wind on the mast and rigging et al you're going nowhere (but sideways) fast. And that comes as a surprise to you?

A large overlapping jib with the sheet-lead well aft so that the top 3rd of the leach rolls off to leeward will move the center of pressure aft and allow some yachts to make way to weather but it's had to manage the sail. It's tough on the boat and the sail and won't leave you with a lot of options if things get sideways. Moreover with wind and sea against you, tacking becomes an exercise in frustration if not futility. A Chicken Gybe will allow you to "tack" but a 300º turn will cost a lot of distance, particularly from 90º to 270º so what's the point when a deeply reefed main avoids (nearly) all of the issues?

FWIW...
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  #36  
Old 04-25-2012
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Re: Over Powered in 30 knots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
Going out in 30kts., gusting to 40kts. in a 26 ft. boat in choppy water.....really? You guys are tough. I have yet to see anyone intentionally go out in such conditions in this area. (And why would you want to anyway....you're just going to beat up the boat and yourself?) Now that you've discussed the sailing pretty much in detail, please discuss docking and undocking without damaging the boat in these conditions. Don't spare details... this is a skill that I really want to learn (high wind docking and undocking, especially with crosswind).
Sure, ill give you the skinny.
Well we were about a half mile north of Epping forest yacht club trying to head in a northerly direction when I got tired of being hit broadside after every failed tack. So I guess I did a "chicken gybe?" since I just whipped the boat from 2 o'clock down to 5:30.
So now we are running with the wind again and looking for a [place to dock. Problem is the docks jutting out from the riverbank are being pounded by waves and offer no protection. Then I spot Epping forest-- Its a small marina with a sea wall all the way around except for the entrance at 9 o'clock (really neat). Well, the wind and current actually helped now because I was going in the same direction. (I chose this place to dock bc my sister had work and because it was on the same course as I, including wind and current-and I knew my step dad could pick us up quickly!.)
Anyway, I sail to about 50 yards of the marina entrance then I bring down the jib and start floating in with wind and current. Didn't have enough momentum to make the entrance at 9 o'clock-- started shifting sideways, would have been pushed sideways along the outer seawall and banged to death.. So I cranked up my unreliable engine. 8 HP barely moved me through the chop-- For a minute I thought I had ran aground but I knew the swells were lifting me way to high for that to be the case... 8 HP is just to small an engine imo.
Anway, Engine cranks and I start sliding towards the entrance. I veer out to the outer wall and like a long U come right in the Marina which calms down immediately. Took my first right and Throw the boat in neutral and floated about 40-50 ft to an empty slip. Still moving 1-2 knots when I approach slip (told sister to throw over fenders to starboard side already) so I just kick the engine in reverse and I come to a stop with a slight bump on the bow. Kill the engine, tell the sister to grab the bow line I grab the stern line and now we just invaded a multimillion dollar yacht club surrounded by mansions!
Then I mosey on up to the Harbor master, hes in his late 60's, captain something, tell him of my adventure and then relish the look given to a 24 yr old who shinnied his boat under jib into his marina when not one other boat was out on the St. Johns besides a 40+ power yacht.
Now, this sounds like a gloating posts and some of it is. You did not ask me to mention all of my mistakes, because they were made.
(If ever you throw out a stern anchor, remember dummy, you have winches all around you! Use the winch to help get the anchor up otherwise your hands will be raw.)


***Want to add- The epping forest yacht club harbormaster and staff are very freindly people. They were very understanding and when I offered to pay them for slip usage they steadfastly denied. They were just glad my sister and I had found somewhere safe to stop. So, just wanted to give them some love. Also, beautiful place. If you have the money, that place is sweet. Very Spanish Riviera feeling.

Last edited by Harborless; 04-25-2012 at 10:46 AM. Reason: Clarify
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  #37  
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Re: Over Powered in 30 knots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailguy40 View Post
NCC320, sounds like the best advice yet. I could be just as crazy since I am going out in 25knots with a 22ft boat. Exactly why I lost a rudder so far but I needed to experience it at least a couple times in case im ever caught out for some reason. At least I can say been there. I sometimes worry I have out grown my boat since I have pushed it to its limits more then once. At the same time, since I have learned so much more, lately I have only been out in under 15 knot winds. Good thing is its like that around here 80% of the time. In the end its just not worth it going out in that running the risk of breaking things not to mention hull stress. I could not imagine the nightmare of losing a mast.
My port side chain plate broke lose on the same northward tack I was talking about in this posts, just a few weeks back. I had taken out and inspected the starboard chain plate and it looked new so I neglected to check starboard.. Big mistake. If I had not recently resheathed my mast and replaced all the standing rigging the mast would have definitely went down. As it was I had to throw the boat to the opposite tack to take the weight off the port side. Once I was on that tack and the mast had not fallen down I went up and used the jib line to tie through the eye of the two turnbuckles, then I winched the jib line under the toerail as tight as I could get it. Ended up giving the mast a lot of support but by the time I made it back to dock my Jib line was practically chaffed through. I shudder to think what would have happened if it had...
Morale of the story is don't assume-- And ffs make sure your standing rigging is up to par. I had 3 ppl out that day and when it broke they were panic stricken. I couldnt let them know I was quivering with fear myself--- You look up 36 feet and see your mast swinging about it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel good.
Also, when things go bad and your 24 some ppl just assumes your an irresponsible idiot with no clue.
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Re: Over Powered in 30 knots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
The center of pressure of the "standard jib" is far forward of the center of lateral resistance (keel, rudder et al) hence the yacht wants to turn down wind. To resist this you had the rudder hard over, likely well more than 45º hence you're attempting to drag a big rectalinear plate through the water. With all the drag of the rudder, wind on the mast and rigging et al you're going nowhere (but sideways) fast. And that comes as a surprise to you?

A large overlapping jib with the sheet-lead well aft so that the top 3rd of the leach rolls off to leeward will move the center of pressure aft and allow some yachts to make way to weather but it's had to manage the sail. It's tough on the boat and the sail and won't leave you with a lot of options if things get sideways. Moreover with wind and sea against you, tacking becomes an exercise in frustration if not futility. A Chicken Gybe will allow you to "tack" but a 300º turn will cost a lot of distance, particularly from 90º to 270º so what's the point when a deeply reefed main avoids (nearly) all of the issues?

FWIW...
A well deserved evaluation. Every trip out is a learning experience, I learned a lot from the other day and from the replies on this board. Thanks all!
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  #39  
Old 04-25-2012
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Re: Over Powered in 30 knots?

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Originally Posted by tommays View Post
When i am out by myself it does depend on the boat BUT the Cal 29 needs a BIT of both sails to function well VS the J24 which does pretty good on Mainsail alone
I agree! My Merit 25 doesn't do well at all in high winds with just the jib up, but does "OK" on the Mainsail alone
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Re: Over Powered in 30 knots?

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Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
Now that you've discussed the sailing pretty much in detail, please discuss docking and undocking without damaging the boat in these conditions. Don't spare details... this is a skill that I really want to learn (high wind docking and undocking, especially with crosswind).
Keep up speed so the keel and rudder bite.

Don't be afraid to hit stuff. You will
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