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  #31  
Old 05-23-2012
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Re: Final Dinghy Choice - does this make sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamO View Post
Vasco,
That is all well and good. I enjoy fast inflatables and prefer RIBs and buy into many of the practicality issues

BUT

Where do you stow it when underway?

On an arch or davits, hauled with the motor on.

How do you get it on and off the boat without getting (another) hernia?

No problem, simply lower or haul.


Come to think of it where do you get a 2 Stroke Yamaha?
Nassau, $2100 15hp 2 stroke Yamaha







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  #32  
Old 05-23-2012
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Re: Final Dinghy Choice - does this make sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bljones View Post
Yet another example of Sailnet thread "needs inflation."
The OP starts off with a simple premise, by the second page he is getting reccommendations that far exceed his needs, with dire warnings that his original premise will be a complete failure.

Seriously, lots of folks cruise with dinghies without hard bottoms, and do just fine. Who the hell cares about planing in a get-to-shore dinghy and dive platform?
an RIB is at least twice the cost of a hard floor inflatable of the same length, and weighs twice as much, requiring a bigger O/B, and they are very nice, but require davits (more $$$) and the benefit is?
They plane and handle coral better.
Hell, one could sacrifice a soft bottom inflatable to coral every year and still be money ahead three years later.

Somewhere along the way , the original spec of "Normally 2, max 4" occupants got extrapolated into needing to accomodate 4 regularly.

Our 6.5' (yep, it is real short) inflatable regularly carries two unlight adults, a hyperactive dog and 10 gallons of water comfortably, easily propelled by a 2 hp OB. Yeah, the boat doesn't plane. So what? neither does my sailboat.
Ouch.

I dissagree with so many things you said. Suprising because I generally agree with most of your posts and find them a good resource. For the record, everything I told him was right-on target from my experience. ANd I may b one of the only people on this forum that actually currently owns both a HPIB and RIB and has been cruising (and soon will be again).

Ii am going to pick apart what you have said. It is not meant to start a internet argument, but rather to show you that the quotes above are misleading if not altogether wrong.

1) Regarding the dive platform. It was the OP that brought that up. My experience is that it didn't matter either way, and in some ways the HPIB was better because crap doesn't slide aroun an bang in the hard bottom. My issue was never which tender, but trying to get my lard butt back into it in after a day of diving. I think he would be fine with either tender as that's not the real issue.

2) Cost is at least twice as much for a RIB versus HPIB. Not true. I paid ballpark $2200 - 2500 for my tender. It is 10'2ish. As he quoted $2100-$2400 for the current choice of tenders, they are comparable in price. If you jump into an aluminum tender, yes you will pay a lot more. However, I only threw that out as an option because I think they are excellent choices if money is not an object. Still, I did not purchase one and few people I know have one due to cost.

3) Lots of folks cruise without hard bottoms. True, but missleading. Lots of people do it. I have seen them. I may not have coined the phrase, but often use it, "You would be shocked what people cruise on..." I hold by that and I truly believe you can make about anything work. However, my first hand experience and that of most people I have met, wish they had a RIB that own(ed) a soft bottom. I have seen people get by fine with a kayak. The really cheap plastic sailing dinghys from Walker Bay are more numerous than I would have suspcted. I have seen three people (different boats) that just swam to shore. I even have a picture somewhere of this guy that used a truck intertube (really funy, he was fishing from it too and sunburned). Getting out cruising is more important than having the perfect equipment, but if you are going to go and are going to spend the money, get the right equipment the first time instead of buying it twice. I was dumb and bought it twice. I am trying to get someone else to learn from my mistakes.

4) Who cares about a planning dinghy. I thought it was pointless until I did it too. Now I would not haver one that does not plane. It also helps when taking the dog to shore. I anchor out a lot and many places are simply not accessible due to the draft of my sailboat. As such, we find a place that is good holding and use the tender to explore and fish. The tender will be your workhorse and car. Each person can choose for themselves whether they want the horse or the car. Both will get the job done, I guess.



5) RIB's require a much bigger outboard. Not true. Not if we are comparing apples-apples. A slat-bottom soft floor was not even one of the tenders he offered so I will keep that out of the equation (I have owned one of those too). His minimum inflateable was a HPIB. The whole point of a HPIB is to plane. On mine, we chose a 6hp Mercury. It would barely get me up on a plane with one kid in there. On our Avon RIB, we had a 8HP. It would easily get me and the wife and Chase up on a plane (we used an Avon RIB on our 380, circa 1999-2003ish). My experience is that the RIB will jump on a plane easier with same HP and hold it better. The issue with a HPIB is that no matter how you hard you pump it up, there is a lot more drag on the bottom (bottom is seperate from floor) and you may actually have to have more HP on a HPIB to maintain a comporable plane. They do weigh less, but surprisingly in my experience, that is less an issue than its ability to get on and hold a plane. In effect, you do not have to have a larger engine with a RIB. However, you generally get the option to have a larger engine. And if he goes with a 2 stroke over 4, he will find that a 15hp probably weighs the same as a 8 hp 4stroke and is a lot less unwieldly.

6) RIB's require a davit. Not true. I see many people that do not have davits that use a RIB. They haul it up on deck. That would not be my choice (and was not). I would have Davits for either type because you don't want to leave either type in the water. Honestly, it was less of a concern that it gets stolen (an issue though) and more of a concern and issue with growth. A rib also pulls behind the boat better in my opinion and that is how it will b used a LOT while cruising.

7) Regarding coral and HPIB's versus RIB's. I have punched a hole in my boat so am a bit prjudiced about it, but the bottom line is that he will be shoring his boat a lot and the sand alone will wear quickly on a HPIB. As I also pointed out, the sand and shells get between the HPIB floor and bottom and chafe it. Quite candidly, when cruising, you likly won't tie up at a dinghy dock every night or have access to a marina every night... at least we dont. And if you are just going to marina hop, you probably don't need a tender at all.

8) You could sacrifice a soft bottom inflateable every year for three years and still come out ahead. First, a true soft bottom was never even on his list and not an option he presented. Second, this assumes you are in the US. Let's say he blows his soft bottom in the Carribean. What is the cost of replacement there, if he can even get one? I bet it is a wee bit more than in the US (Tongue in cheek). Just get the right tender the first time and not worry about it.

9) "Our 6.5' (yep, it is real short) inflatable regularly carries two unlight adults, a hyperactive dog and 10 gallons of water comfortably, easily propelled by a 2 hp OB. Yeah, the boat doesn't plane. So what? neither does my sailboat" You have made work what is right for you. I am cool with that. If as a F/T cruiser you have made that work, good for you. I did not like it at all. And BTW, as you are throwing out the 6'5 boat with no HPIB and a 2 hp motor, aren't you "needing inflation" as you too are not offering direct experience with the very tenders he is throwing out here as options? THough you are minimalizing what he needs, you just did the same thing you accused others of doing.

I am not trying to start a internet war. The commens in this thread are not mean to anger you. I am adding to this thread because if anyone else reads it that has similar thoughts, they will see a variety of other views. That is what the internet is about and makes it a good source.

These are only my opinions. Take them as such. Tenders, anchors, keels, etc ellicit a variety of opinions that are based in direct experience and will often bring very opposing views.

Thanks.

Brian
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  #33  
Old 05-23-2012
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Re: Final Dinghy Choice - does this make sense?

To me this breaks down into a few separate issues. The first is

1) where you are going to store any dinghy. Of any type. If you want to put it on the bow, there are some real hurdles you have to address to do this reasonably well. First is how to get it out of the water. The normal answer here is to use a spinnaker halyard and winch to pull it up, swing it onto the deck, and then manhandle it into a set of fixed chocks mounted to the bow. Even wi a small light boat this is not an easy operation, and is almost impossible to do in strong winds, without a significant number of hands. Yes it is possible and I have done it, but it is a pain.

The other option is to flip the boat over and put it on the bow. This is more secure as sea, doesn't require the chocks, and makes visibility a bit better looking forward. However flipping over the boat is a pretty big time commitment, and a real PITA.

The other option is to store it under the boom... I have never done this so I won't comment except to say it just looks like a bad idea.

Finally you can put whatever boat you buy on a davit system on the back. This is probably the most expensive option, since these davits run about $1,000. But once they are there you just grab a line with multiple purchase blocks on it, and pull the boat out of the water. No work, no real loads, no fighting with it. And it takes about a minute to pull my dinghy out of the water. This means you can do it every night, so you don't need bottom paint, and don't have to worry about it getting stolen. In addition, if something goes wrong in the middle of the night the dinghy is already stowed for sea, or can be dropped in the water in moments to help out.


Once the storage solution is decided on, then you have to decide what dinghy you want. I have used them all, and have cruised with them all, and I have determined for me when I would use one versus the other.

1) for a boat that lives at the dock, will be provisioned at the dock,, and just needs to put people ashore to go drinking, the cheapest option available. This is the weekender boat that leaves on Friday night and return to port on Sunday.

2) If the dinghy is oing to be used for anything else, I would always buy a hard bottom. Both for the speed, and the durability. And the longer you are crusing the more important a hard bottom and speed is. Everyone thinks of beaches as pretty sand flats that taper gently into the sea. And if you happen to be in destin that's pretty much true. But I have pulled dinghys up on everything from shale to rocks to coral, mud, sea grass, logs, pieces of junk beaches that are destined to rip, scratch, and tear anything they get there hands on. Adding a soft inflatable bottom to the mix is just asking for trouble, and a ripped open dinghy.


And yes I recognize that people have and do use pretty much everything as dinghys. Heck I saw a yacht with a 40' Hatteras onboard as a dinghy. And I have seen boats that swim ashore, and use intertubes, all sorts of things. But just because something can be pressed into service doesn't mean it is the best tool for the job.

For me the extra money spent on a boat I can rely on, and will have for years is a easy decision. Because going from a boat that plans on using a dinghy to get to shore, back to a swim aboard (I did this thanks to a ripped out bottom) really sucks.

Last edited by Stumble; 06-28-2012 at 01:44 PM.
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  #34  
Old 05-23-2012
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Re: Final Dinghy Choice - does this make sense?

Guys,
Thanks for the enormous effort here. We may need to turn this thread into a book "bl%$#y dinghies" or similar......

This really has helped me in a way I had not expected. It has convinced me I should really slow this process down.

This is a complicated and potentially very expensive decision. We are going to keep the boat in a slip for the first year anyway, and only cruising locally (Maine) with the goal of getting more adventurous next year and going cruising long term the year after. So - we are going to start ultra-minimalist low cost and simple, maybe even a second hand rowboat only (we have a life raft as well ).

That way we can work out what we really need, what will fit on the boat and how we are going to handle it before we spend a bunch of money that might be going in the wrong direction.

Spending deferred is always good - more electronics needed?.......
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  #35  
Old 05-23-2012
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Re: Final Dinghy Choice - does this make sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
To me this breaks down into a few separate issues. The first is

1) where you are going to store any dinghy. Of any type. If you want to put it on the bow, there are some real hurdles you have to address to do this reasonably well. First is how to get it out of the water. The normal answer here is to use a spinnaker halyard and winch to pull it up, swing it onto the deck, and then manhandle it into a set of fixed chocks mounted to the bow. Even wi a small light boat this is not an easy operation, and is almost impossible to do in strong winds, without a significant number of hands. Yes it is possible and I have done it, but it is a pain.

The other option is to flip the boat over and put it on the bow. This is more secure as sea, doesn't require the chocks, and makes visibility a bit better looking forward. However flipping over the boat is a pretty big time commitment, and a real PITA.

The other option is to store it under the boom... I have never done this so I won't comment except to say it just looks like a good idea.

Finally you can put whatever boat you buy on a davit system on the back. This is probably the most expensive option, since these davits run about $1,000. But once they are there you just grab a line with multiple purchase blocks on it, and pull the boat out of the water. No work, no real loads, no fighting with it. And it takes about a minute to pull my dinghy out of the water. This means you can do it every night, so you don't need bottom paint, and don't have to worry about it getting stolen. In addition, if something goes wrong in the middle of the night the dinghy is already stowed for sea, or can be dropped in the water in moments to help out.


Once the storage solution is decided on, then you have to decide what dinghy you want. I have used them all, and have cruised with them all, and I have determined for me when I would use one versus the other.

1) for a boat that lives at the dock, will be provisioned at the dock,, and just needs to put people ashore to go drinking, the cheapest option available. This is the weekender boat that leaves on Friday night and return to port on Sunday.

2) If the dinghy is oing to be used for anything else, I would always buy a hard bottom. Both for the speed, and the durability. And the longer you are crusing the more important a hard bottom and speed is. Everyone thinks of beaches as pretty sand flats that taper gently into the sea. And if you happen to be in destin that's pretty much true. But I have pulled dinghys up on everything from shale to rocks to coral, mud, sea grass, logs, pieces of junk beaches that are destined to rip, scratch, and tear anything they get there hands on. Adding a soft inflatable bottom to the mix is just asking for trouble, and a ripped open dinghy.


And yes I recognize that people have and do use pretty much everything as dinghys. Heck I saw a yacht with a 40' Hatteras onboard as a dinghy. And I have seen boats that swim ashore, and use intertubes, all sorts of things. But just because something can be pressed into service doesn't mean it is the best tool for the job.

For me the extra money spent on a boat I can rely on, and will have for years is a easy decision. Because going from a boat that plans on using a dinghy to get to shore, back to a swim aboard (I did this thanks to a ripped out bottom) really sucks.
One of the advantages of the HPIB is you can throw it down below on passages. We did. Getting the thing to deflate was never a problem. Getting it to hold air was. Hehe!

To the OP:

I have a 10'2 Avon HPIB in SW Florida. You can buy it if you want. I will even sell you the 6hp engine. I just had it overhauled (a recurring problem on those 4 strokes, btw). You can get out cheap and see if you like HPIB's. It needs some glue work, but that is not that expensive. I think it still holds air. There is a nice gash in the bottom (patched) where a coral head caught it. I really wasn't joking about that.

This is not a sales gimmick because I really couldn't care less about that boat and keep for the kids to screw around on. You keep that boat for 12 months cruising and you will be on here telling me about your new RIB. Or maybe not??

Serious offer. I just think it is a mistake.

Brian
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  #36  
Old 05-23-2012
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Re: Final Dinghy Choice - does this make sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasco View Post




Hey Rick,

I know you photoshopped that tender! No way there's not at least one patch!?

Brian
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  #37  
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Re: Final Dinghy Choice - does this make sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamO View Post
Guys,
Thanks for the enormous effort here. We may need to turn this thread into a book "bl%$#y dinghies" or similar......

This really has helped me in a way I had not expected. It has convinced me I should really slow this process down.

This is a complicated and potentially very expensive decision. We are going to keep the boat in a slip for the first year anyway, and only cruising locally (Maine) with the goal of getting more adventurous next year and going cruising long term the year after. So - we are going to start ultra-minimalist low cost and simple, maybe even a second hand rowboat only (we have a life raft as well ).

That way we can work out what we really need, what will fit on the boat and how we are going to handle it before we spend a bunch of money that might be going in the wrong direction.

Spending deferred is always good - more electronics needed?.......
Graham,

It's all good and all in good fun. You didn't actually expect us to all agree, did you?!?? Don't ever take anything on one of the threads here to heart or you will hate the internet. Good luck in your choice. Look forward to seeing you down here.

Brian
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  #38  
Old 05-23-2012
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Re: Final Dinghy Choice - does this make sense?

All the dinghys at the dinghy dock in the photo shows a "Poll of choice",- 'sure are a lot of RIB's. I've have a 5hp 4stroke on my Carribe 10L so I'm never on a plane. 'not really very heavy without the double hull. I have big stainless steel 2.5" diameter davits whipped up in a friends garage for zero bucks beyond the raw stock pipe. For me it's all a choice of stability and capacity. I can put two bicycles, laundry and groceries aboard with my wife and dog and myself and I can perch my 200lbs on the edge when it's empty. I think this is why you see so many RIB's at the dinghy docks, but there's nothing wrong with other choices that fit other's needs!
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Old 05-23-2012
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Re: Final Dinghy Choice - does this make sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Hey Rick,

I know you photoshopped that tender! No way there's not at least one patch!?

Brian
Eight seasons in the Bahamas and the AB still looks new. No patches, I might get around to cleaning the bottom one day. I sold the ten year old Yamaha this season and got a brand new one. Same 15hp 2 stroke. The old one was getting a bit tired and would not get us on the plane with two passengers (about 360 lbs.) and 4 jugs of water (another 250 odd pounds). The old ob didn't owe us anything, no service during the ten years except to change the plugs every other year or so. The guy who bought the old one said the bottom gear lube was a bit black.

Here's a pic with the new motor. No Southport Raw Bar bumper stickers on it.

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Old 05-23-2012
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Re: Final Dinghy Choice - does this make sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasco View Post
Eight seasons in the Bahamas and the AB still looks new. No patches, I might get around to cleaning the bottom one day. I sold the ten year old Yamaha this season and got a brand new one. Same 15hp 2 stroke. The old one was getting a bit tired and would not get us on the plane with two passengers (about 360 lbs.) and 4 jugs of water (another 250 odd pounds). The old ob didn't owe us anything, no service during the ten years except to change the plugs every other year or so. The guy who bought the old one said the bottom gear lube was a bit black.

Here's a pic with the new motor. No Southport Raw Bar bumper stickers on it.

Let my kids drive. You'll have a patch!

Are you keeping your boat in the Bahamas or FTL?

Brian
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