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How Far Do You Heel...?

16K views 89 replies 44 participants last post by  billyruffn 
#1 ·
New sailor(s) here, maiden voyage this weekend...

Previous sailing was done on a cat where you either sail flat or heel comes with lifting a hull, the whole COG feeling is different than a keel boat...

We started out in 5-10 knot winds with the occasional gust to 15...when the boat first caught the wind and went 5*-7* heel I had screamers aboard...I'm saying..."this is OK sailboats "lean", get used to it"...

Then a gust would push us to 10* or even 12* with more screaming and scrambling...(we're only doing 3 1/2- 4 knots at the time) shoal keel boat and yes swing keel is down..

After an hour or so the "crew" was starting to get into it... trusting the boat (and me) that we weren't gonna flip over (which also sometimes happens on the cat) and the screaming stopped...we could trim the boat to hold a steady 10* and a good gust might get me a "glance" as we rolled to 15 or so...

I kept telling the crew (family) that 15* was "nothing" and with more wind and more speed we might hit 20*-25* and really no worries till we get over 30*, inclinometer goes to 45*...

So, I know it depends on the boat and sail trim and a dozen other factors, but "How far is too far"... and where do you spend most of your fair-mid weather sailing time (degree wise)...?
 
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#2 ·
Too much heel equals too much weather helm, AKA a brake. You are slowing down.

Close hauled 15 to 20 degree is a rough limit.

Broach reach - flat.

What type of boat? That makes some difference.

BTW - the safety and comfort of the crew is your primary responsibility.
 
#3 ·
It definitely 'depends' on a whole lot of things, but generally a 15 degree heel angle is usually considered optimum, with some boats sailing flatter due to crew ballast or inherent stiffness, and others routinely exceeding that number, at least occasionally.

The flatter you can sail the more efficient the sails and foils will be.. OTOH in many designs a bit of heel reduces wetted surface to good effect, esp in light airs when the crew will intentionally heel the boat beyond what the wind will do.

But in the end, 'it depends'.....;)

Life is a whole lot better when the crew accepts and even begins to enjoy the heeling that goes with sailing upwind....
 
#4 ·
Sailboats have rounded sides...powerboats are schear. As stated 15-18 degrees is usallay the limnit when you start pushing water ( braking). Weatherhelm usually only comes into play when close hauled as an indicator.

My rule of thumb is we reduce the heel angle when it slows down the speed of the boat no matter what point of sail. Easy one to rememeber.

Dave
 
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#5 ·
C2S - Having been a boat that rounded up from a broad reach (under white sails) I can attest that weather helm can be found on other points of sail.

To the OP - THE RULE - REEF WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT.
 
#7 ·
I try to stay under 90 myself! beyond that causes some major issues!......

Reality is, if the rail is in the water, time to reduce sail! 20-30 depending upon numerous things is about max in all reality..........oh yeah, 180 is a bit too far south, or down under as some might say!

Marty
 
#8 · (Edited)
C2S - Having been a boat that rounded up from a broad reach (under white sails) I can attest that weather helm can be found on other points of sail.jackdale
Weatherhelm usually only comes into play when close hauled as an indicator.-chef2sail
Note the word usually. I outlined in in bold so you would see it this time as you must have read what I said too quickly and felt the need to correct me.. Of course you feel weatherhelm on other points of sail.

Too much heel equals too much weather helm-,jackdale
My statement was saying that you should not use whetherhelm to detemine whether your angle of heel is slowing you down. You will usually feel that constant weatherhelm on a close haul. Some boats sail very comfortably with a moderate amount of weatherhelm and it does not slow them down or make them round up. It also depends on wind conditions whether constant or gusty and how the boat is designed. If you sailed my C&C 35 upright with no weatherhelm....you will not go as fast. Every boat has its tipping point which depends on design...sail used etc. Its like reefing. There are many variable factors. Heel angle is similar as pointed out by stumble.
Dave
 
#9 ·
It really depends on the boat. My Olson 30 sails fastest flat, very flat, like less than 5degrees flat. Anything more than that and we are going slow. The Columbia 50 I sail on needs about 15 degrees to regain its waterline (stupid rating rule boats), and start performing well.

Luckily most sailboats heave a very definite feedback loup to tell you when the boat is heeled to much. As the tiller loads up it indicates the boat is out of balance, and you are being forced to use the rudder to keep her strait, this acts as a nice speed break and is slow. The fun part is this happens right when the boat has too much heel for the keel/rudder/hull design. So if you feel load on the rudder, flatten the boat and go faster.
 
#10 ·
These are good answers... I don't "want" to heel excessivly, just wanted to get some numbers/data to back up my "guesstimations"..

Looks like (and felt like) 10*-12*-15* is the "range" to sail in... more is not better and maybe slower...

I've read many times "the boat will round up".. and want to believe it, also want to display confidence to crew without scareing them (or me)...and with the wife I would definetly sacrifice speed to keep her happy, hoping to build a confidence and love of sailing in her so we can do this awhile...

Then maybe some day when I have my logger friend, trucker, biker buddys and we're out doing Pirate Stuff... we can lean her over and see who screams like a little girl....
 
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#11 · (Edited)
A more useful question might be "how much rudder will you allow to overcome weather helm". When I can no longer adjust our sail trim to reduce our rudder angle to less than 10º-15º (max!), we reef the main or at least do a "Fisherman's reef" on short tacks. Dragging a laid-over rudder really slows you down. On our current boat (First 42), the foregoing is about 18º-20º of heel. On our previous boat--Cal 2-29--a surfer, it was less.

FWIW...
 
#14 ·
Squidd, as you were the only one comfortable with a keel boat's characteristics. Just a suggestion, don't tip the boat! until they are ready! Most people will never come back if the first experience was uncomfortable or scary. Example: "we went camping one time.. I was cold and wet the whole time... I was on his bike and he was doing 120.... scared me to death.... never again"
Just something for you to consider or you may find yourself sailing alone allot more.
:)
 
#20 ·
Oh no... not looking for maximum tip.... I remember taking her out on my chopper and saying "tap me if we go too fast"... I thought she was beating on me going "Faster -Faster"...when she really ment slow down You "Baster* You Baster*)...:eek:

I want this to go good... no scare offs...

Boat is 26' and 6500# shoal Keel with 500# swing keel doubling draft...I don't want to pull 15* if 20* will round up, but looks like we were just "gettin in the zone..." So it's OK to be confident to that level..

I've heard on the Paceship website 45*-50* before she "rounds up"...not that I'm going there but nice to know the safety margin...

However, if the boat is a rather typical keelboat, the boat's max righting moment is achieved around 60 degrees of heel, far more than you are likely to experience without a spinnaker in a blow. And once the boat hits 30 degrees on, the sails automatically start to depower.
That's what "I'm" looking for... Promise not to scare the female/family crew at anything near that...But when the "boys come out to play"....all bets are off..
 
#15 ·
Enchantress was designed to sail at a 20 degree angle of heel. That produces the max waterline length this was a result of the old IOR rule that penalized waterline length.
That being said, the angle of heel always seems about double what it really is, especially to people not used to sailboats. You might consider puttin a clinometer in your cockpit so when people get worried you can point outy that your only at a 10 or 15 degree angle of heel. I did this when my wife started sailing and it seemed to have a really calming effect
 
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#16 ·
That being said, the angle of heel always seems about double what it really is, especially to people not used to sailboats. You might consider puttin a clinometer in your cockpit so when people get worried you can point outy that your only at a 10 or 15 degree angle of heel. I did this when my wife started sailing and it seemed to have a really calming effect
An another consideration; have the crew on the windward side, facing windward. That does two things:
1) It helps flatten the boat.
2) The crew is looking out, not down at the water rushing by.
 
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#17 ·
+1 with bloodhunter

Used to have a MacGregor 26M. Went to 20* at the slightest puff. Best way to ensure "she-who-must-be-obeyed" enjoyed sailing was to have the main sheet in her hands. She would dump air when we went too far over.

Now in the Bene, with a couple years experience, we know to adjust the sails and ensure our heel rarely goes beyond 18-20* no matter how heavy the wind.
 
#18 ·
There are two ranges that you need to be concerned with

Crew Comfort and Safety and Boat Performance; they are not necessarily the same range.

For most boats 10-20 deg heel is optimal for performance. Long overhang boat hulls need more heel, short ones less. However, most of the time, I do what the guests want until boat performance (extreme weather helm) comes into play. Some guest don't like a lot of heel, others are fine with it. The Admiral also says when she is "uncomfortable", but usually that is when we need to reef or or do a different point of sail to reduce weather helm.

DrB
 
#19 ·
Is it a C22 or similar? (I noticed the centerboard reference). If so, be careful as those have been known to capsize and are really in between a keelboat and a dinghy. Ie, their point of diminishing stability is quite low and they may not come up from a serious knockdown.

However, if the boat is a rather typical keelboat, the boat's max righting moment is achieved around 60 degrees of heel, far more than you are likely to experience without a spinnaker in a blow. And once the boat hits 30 degrees on, the sails automatically start to depower.

I think cats are far less sensitive to being overtrimmed (I could be wrong). On a keelboat, if the main is sheeted too tight upwind you will heel more but not go as fast. Let out the main until it flogs, then just pull it in to where it's no longer stalling. A reverse "bubble" along the luff is ideal. Besides staying upright, this helps keep weatherhelm in check, and therefore keeps you off the rudder/break.

Typically you will heel over most right after a tack. In choppy and windy conditions especially the gust will hit before the boat has time to accelerate and the boat will heel way over. To avoid this (and avoid scaring the wife) you can let out the sheet a bit (inducing twist and reducing power) until the boat accelerates, then pull it back in.

As stated by plenty others, 15 degrees is normal, 20 is common and hitting 30-35 will happen in gusts esp if you don't reef early enough or release the sheet in time. Usually the rail will go under around 35, and this is entirely safe and normal in even "coastal" keelboats.

If you hit 45, most likely the rudder will loose its bite and the boat will automatically round up into the wind. To soothe the crew, show them the video of "hunter capsize" (in search) on youtube. These guys purposely over canvassed and over sheeted on a blustery day, even pulled on the boom to get the boat so heeled over as to round up. You see the rudder out of the water, and the boat just safely rounds right up. Just make sure the cockpit lockers have latches and are secured before trying that!
 
#22 ·
Come on Jack, let me keep my balls...

Just saying I promise to be "really cool" with the family and "pretty cool" with the boys...

I'm not stupid....coast guard was doing a safety meet at the marina..Wife asks "What if you fall in?'.... They said "DON'T"... @ 40*-45* in the water you got 10-12 min "maybe"...

No games on this boat... we have plenty fun on the Cat in warmer water...


"
 
#23 ·
I found that I have been able to soothe the fears of my daughters with respect to healing by demonstrating the use of the main sheet and its effect on the heel angle. On a close haul course: Trim the main sheet, increase heel; ease the main sheet, decrease heel. Now that the girls know that Daddy can control heel and that the boat isn't going to tip over, they simply let me know when they are uncomfortable. It's fun watching them scramble to the high side of the boat after tacking...
 
#24 ·
Like the others, I agree that it is kinda boat-specific. My old Harstad liked around 20 degrees before it really started moving, but my Crealock Columbia 36 prefers around 15 degrees and she screams.

Keep it comfortable. The difference between 20 degrees at 7 knots and 15 degrees at 6.5 knots is the comfort.
 
#25 ·
New sailors here as well. This weekend we were on Lake Michigan in a 35 ft. Beneteau. Wind was 20 knots and a small craft advisory. We were between a close haul and a beam reach. There was a lot of weather helm. It was getting hard to handle the boat. We furled in the genoa a bit hoping to take out some power. Didn't help much but then it wasn't furled much. When we furled in part of the jib it was flapping quite hard. Then I let out the traveller a bit and let out the main, hoping to spill some wind and depower the boat. It helped some. Finally I just took in the genoa and it was much easier then.

I don't know the angle of our heel, but I think it was effecting the ability of the rudder. When you get so much weatherhelm that it is hard to keep the boat under control, what should you do with sail trim? BTW - we have an inmast furling main.
 
#26 ·
Some boats like to heel. While I have not had my sprite out yet, I have read and heard that they like to bury the rail and when they do, they just gain speed. Granted, a seasprite 23 is an old fashioned boat with very low sheer, so the rail is only about 2 feet above the waterline as it is
 
#31 ·
Yep, lots of numbers, things getting lost in translation.

I've TRIED to find the deepest heel I can get on my boat (I want to know what it'll take before I start to push it with others aboard). I can't get past 35 degrees (using a LEV-O-GAUGE). The boat loses bite, and rounds up... rail super-wet, and water rolling into the cockpit at 35. Off wind, well, if you are going DDW, heeling is an effect of rollers, and surfing, and heel isn't really an issue is it? Beam reach and closer? different story.

Optimum heel angle is another story... I suspect it's about 20 degrees on my boat (recently I've formed the opinion that 25 isn't horribly slow though). I've been faster than others with higher angles of heel though. I think people get lost in looking at heel angle and ignore what produces speed. Sure you should always consider your passengers/crew comfort before you go seeking to wet the rail. But optimum trim should be your focus.

Without a spinnaker up or really confused seas, you'll be hard pressed to get past say 30-35 (between auto-rounding up, and spilling wind, etc). Now if your swinger decided to swing IN on you, I suspect ALL bets are off!...

Something seems amiss here though, a 500lb keel on a 26 foot boat (my 25 at half your total weight, is 900lbs)? I think some numbers are off... if it's the paceship we're talking about, its showing #2200 of ballast (its possible the swing part is 500lbs and the rest is in fixed ballast so maybe?)!

Either way I wouldn't worry about maximum, or optimum heel just yet, I'd put more focus on getting trim set right, as well as figuring how to make the boat quickest for any particular point of sail. Learn to depower it when necessary, and comfort levels as well as confidence will come up quickly.

As for reef when you first think of it... ugh... If I had a nickle for every time I've heard that. I could NOT disagree more!

I'd argue that EVERYONE should learn how to depower their rig without reefing first! Then as a last resort, reef. Certainly if you have a thunderhead approaching, REEF! But reefing just because your are overpowered right now, is the wrong response... figure out how to depower what you have first... then decide if you really need to reef. Winds oscillate in power, everyone should know how to adjust what they have to compensate for it... because HERE's the deal... what happens if you reef and you are STILL overpowered? You reefing again? What if you can't? You'll still need to know what will depower your rig as the winds pipe up... Unlucky is the sailor who has run out of reef points, and who's iron genny won't start, and doesn't know how to make the sails he/she has work for the conditions he/she has had thrust upon them.

Look up topics here on TWIST, and ANGLE of ATTACK, DEPOWER... you'll get info you can use for EVERY sail.

Good luck and get that crew used to feeling for speed and ignoring heel.
 
#28 · (Edited)
I pay attention to my speed, not my heel angle. My Pearson 28 hits hull speed upwind at between 20-30 degrees heel angle. Yes, there is weather helm; yes, the rudder is being dragged through the water at an angle; yes the keel is acting as a lever in the water; nevertheless, the boat is going as fast as it can at that angle. As an IOR-influence boat with a large J measurement, most of the P28's power comes from the jib, and as the boat is initially tender, it will heel over quickly to 15 degrees upwind as it nears hull speed. The waterline is longer as the boat heels, increasing hull speed.

Try experimenting with your main sail trim. Crack off the sheet or drop the traveller, or in an extreme case - put in a reef, and see if your speed increases with less heel angle.

On a broad reach or run, upright is fastest (as the boat rolls). Interestingly, the boat pitches less as it attempts to climb its bow wave at hull speed, or in those rare occasions, surfs down a wave.

Here is my boat upwind at hull speed:
 
#29 ·
In my opinion James has the right approach. You maye be heeled 28 degrees and you may have some helm but if you are passing boats then you are doing the right thing. By
pishing the boat hard you are getting the most horse power out of your rig and this might make up for the negative effects of heel angle. Pretty muich every bpoat I have sailed, and I have sailed a lot, benefits from being "powered up" when on the wind or hard reaching. Heeling to 30 degrees is common when hard on the wind racing. I'm not saying heeling per se is good. I'm saying putting the pedal to the metal and leeting the boat heel, just short of rail under is for most boats the fastest way to sail. Everything short of that is a deference to your crew and their comfort and that's fine but it is probably not fast.

Reefing is huge. There comes a time when you can't get optimal trim out of your main without sticking the rail in and building up unnaceptable weather helm, on some boats. When you need more then 5 degrees of helm it's time to think about putting in a reef.

Cruisers reef for survival.
Racers reef for performance.
 
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