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Is she bluewater? Interesting story to help with these questions.

44K views 125 replies 48 participants last post by  jzk 
#1 ·
I'm in the market for a bluewater. Used to have a cal 25 for years and sailed around in Galveston bay until I moved inland and sold it. I've been reading forums like this for awhile doing research to see what my next boat should be and have seen the question of "what bluewater boat to get," and "what makes a boat bluewater" etc.

I found this and regged just so I could post it. If you're asking those questions, then you should read this --an amazing story that adds to the answers for such questions. Just look at the things that went wrong!
EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE (tm) - Lessons Learned: Sailing to Hawaii...The First Attempt by Arnold Rowe

I take some much from a story like this, from "make everything heavy duty as possible," to "have backup parts for items you can't move without," to "double check that everything works!" to "do drills with gear to make sure it works in a pinch" and the list goes on.

By the way, because of forums like these, I think I've narrowed it down to one of the heavier boats like an Alberg based on my budget. Thanks to all those here for the wealth of info.
 
#3 ·
There is no such thing as a bluewater boat.

Where do you want to go? What is your budget? Let's start there.

THere are a million threads written on this on sailnet and other places. Youu will get twice that many opinions. If you will give me an idea of your itinerary then I can give you my opinion on a suitable boat.

Just remember the old adage: Better to go around the world on a Hunter with an experienced crew than a Valiant with someone that doesn't know what they are doing.

Brian
 
#4 ·
What a story! During my professional delivery days I learned neither Catalinas or Hunters are blue water boats. That was well before the internet. Today you can get on line and come to the same conclusion. Why these people in the Catalina attempted to go to Hawaii without doing some research is a topic onto itself.

They ought to have a sign in the cockpit of Hunters and Catalinas that say "no more than 25 miles offshore."

Let the flaming begin.
 
#5 ·
hey I've got a Catalina and I totally agree. More than a few times, newbies come on here, talking about buying some cheap POS boat and they think they can sail around the world in it and then get upset when I and a couple dozen others tell them in a nice way, they are nuts.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Honestly, while I don't think of Hunters or Catalina's as being great offshore boats the reality is that with proper preparation they are fine.

Let's look at this story for a moment,

1) the primary concern was a case of life threatening sea sickness. This was independent of anything the boat could have controlled.

2) A missing o-ring from a newly installed water intake. A boat problem, but one that could have been repeated on any boat. Certainly not the builders fault

3) Failure to properly update a steering recall. Again, this was a preparation issue

4) leaking hatches. Thus is perhaps the only issue that could be considered the manufacturers fault. But it is a very common problem with all boats, regardless of manufacturer. By this time the boat was 12 years old. Not particularly old by boat standards, but for caulk, sealant, and hatches this would be at or past their expected lifetime.

5) poorly installed bilge pumps. Again an inconvenience, not a condition that threatened the boat. Had the hatches been checked and rebedded before departure this would have been a minor problem at worst

6) broken windwave. While a manufacturing defect, it wasn't Catalina's fault. It was the fault of the steering manufacturer.

7) faulty electronics. Again I place this at the hands of the electronics company, not Catalina.


In short most, if not all of the problems that lead to termination of the voyage (with the exception of the sea sickness) can be directly attributed to poor preparation. Sadly this is often the case. Many cruisers (myself included) spend an inordinate amount of time worried about minor issues, or issues so rare as to never happen, that we forget to check things like if the stearing is up to snuff, or to rebed hatches, ect.

Watching some of the professional solo sailors prep for long distance racing is an eye opener. No one spends any time on what type of drough, or sea anchor they have. They have one on board, and that's enough. But every fitting on the boat is checked, double checked, and tripple checked. Masts go up and down regualrly as fittings are tested, checked for corrosion or weak spots, replaced and put back into service.

After talking with a few of the Open 6.5 guys, the single thing that gets checked the most is steering. Both the auto pilot, and the entire rudder control system. Its like a religion, every few weeks they rip apart the whole steering system to double check everything is ok. Most cruisers however are lucky if they can even find their emergency tiller, let alone know how it all goes together. And the idea of re-running a steering cable at sea, while not very difficult in reality, is something few people know how to do.

I think the most important conclusion to draw from this is to take a real shake down cruise. 2-3 days in the worst conditions you can reasonably expect to see. If it breaks, that is when it will, not on a nice 12kn day. This is particularly important when the likely conditions are widely divergent from the normal life of the boat.
 
#123 · (Edited)
Honestly, while I don't think of Hunters or Catalina's as being great offshore boats the reality is that with proper preparation they are fine.

Let's look at this story for a moment,

1) the primary concern was a case of life threatening sea sickness. This was independent of anything the boat could have controlled.

2) A missing o-ring from a newly installed water intake. A boat problem, but one that could have been repeated on any boat. Certainly not the builders fault

3) Failure to properly update a steering recall. Again, this was a preparation issue

4) leaking hatches. Thus is perhaps the only issue that could be considered the manufacturers fault. But it is a very common problem with all boats, regardless of manufacturer. By this time the boat was 12 years old. Not particularly old by boat standards, but for caulk, sealant, and hatches this would be at or past their expected lifetime.

5) poorly installed bilge pumps. Again an inconvenience, not a condition that threatened the boat. Had the hatches been checked and rebedded before departure this would have been a minor problem at worst

6) broken windwave. While a manufacturing defect, it wasn't Catalina's fault. It was the fault of the steering manufacturer.

7) faulty electronics. Again I place this at the hands of the electronics company, not Catalina.

In short most, if not all of the problems that lead to termination of the voyage (with the exception of the sea sickness) can be directly attributed to poor preparation. Sadly this is often the case. Many cruisers (myself included) spend an inordinate amount of time worried about minor issues, or issues so rare as to never happen, that we forget to check things like if the stearing is up to snuff, or to rebed hatches, ect.

Watching some of the professional solo sailors prep for long distance racing is an eye opener. No one spends any time on what type of drough, or sea anchor they have. They have one on board, and that's enough. But every fitting on the boat is checked, double checked, and tripple checked. Masts go up and down regualrly as fittings are tested, checked for corrosion or weak spots, replaced and put back into service.

After talking with a few of the Open 6.5 guys, the single thing that gets checked the most is steering. Both the auto pilot, and the entire rudder control system. Its like a religion, every few weeks they rip apart the whole steering system to double check everything is ok. Most cruisers however are lucky if they can even find their emergency tiller, let alone know how it all goes together. And the idea of re-running a steering cable at sea, while not very difficult in reality, is something few people know how to do.

I think the most important conclusion to draw from this is to take a real shake down cruise. 2-3 days in the worst conditions you can reasonably expect to see. If it breaks, that is when it will, not on a nice 12kn day. This is particularly important when the likely conditions are widely divergent from the normal life of the boat.
We all love our boats but I think it is border-line irresponsible to encourage people to go offshore in a lightly built coastal cruiser, particularly one that is 25 years old. Catalinas and Hunters are great boats for what they are: coastal cruisers built at a very reasonable price point. Have people crossed oceans in them? Of course. But that is not what they are built for and I wouldn't push my luck by testing them that way.

Edit: Apologies. Didn't notice this was an old thread and that I had made more or less the same comments a year or so ago.
 
#7 · (Edited)
I think it was more the poor preparation on a poorly maintained boat that resulted in this situation. The boat was recovered some time later still afloat (as is usually the case). You can get into the same situation in a Valiant, Sabre, Swan, -enter your favorite 'blue water" boat here-. It all comes down to ensuring the vessel is properly equipped, properly maintained, and properly sailed. A Catalina 36 is more than capable of making that trip given the right weather window and given the right preparation of both boat and crew. If you were going to undertake a trip like this is that preparation something you want to get into? THAT's really where you're going to see a difference with the more traditional "blue water" manufacturers; there will be fewer mods required to affect their safe passage, but the same rules for sound maintenance, and weather window's apply.

One other observation: The majority of successful voyagers don't make webpages to discuss the hows or whys of their success. People who survive a life threatening ordeal are MUCH more likely to publicize lessons learned. While this is a very interesting read, and offers a number of really good considerations, this I don't think this can be viewed as representative of Catalina 36's or production boats. I think it is more representative of this specific Catalina 36, and this particular sailor.

Counterpoint:



A couple more counterpoints:

Sequitur

Our Life At Sea - Cruising in 2009
 
#9 ·
Yes, this is an old story, but a good read just the same. I like Stumble's summary.. not a lot of those issues can be laid at the builder's door.

The boat ultimately survived the ordeal and was returned to the owner, IIRC.
 
#120 ·
Yes, this is an old story, but a good read just the same. I like Stumble's summary.. not a lot of those issues can be laid at the builder's door.

The boat ultimately survived the ordeal and was returned to the owner, IIRC.
Funny how some of these boats seem to do better on their own, than with their owners onboard.

You know you really shouldn't be at sea when you're boat is in less danger with you off of it than on it.
 
#13 · (Edited)
This stuff is all written as if a boat were manufactured like a car. They aren't. The base boat is built, then 'commissioned' by the broker using mostly local resources. I don't know a single owner of a boat that has offshore experience who thinks any boat by any manufacturer is ready to go immediately after commissioning. Most take a measured approach and 'test' the boat over a period of time, distance, races, cruising, etc... that gradually extend the envelope toward the owner's goal whether it's a TransPac or a Ba Ha Ha and onward. Changes are made along the way as will suite the owner's goal. The best owners 'know what they don't know' and embrace the process of sorting a boat ( and crew ) out. Along the way there are inevitably problems that crop up. "Swan" or "Hinckley" on the builder's plate doesn't by you immunity, though it might buy some pretty fabulous customer service and a good basic build quality. If someone's looking for a product that will meet the demands of offshore sailing out of the box without knowledge (or at least extreme curiousity), prep, and work on your part, they really should be pursuing a different, less challenging, recreational outlet.
 
#14 ·
Sorry guys, wasn't really commenting on the boat itself, but the prep work and the items on the boat that could be beefed up to take the seas. This is for any boat! My comment about a heavy boat just has to do with my own experience and the desire not the get the crap beat outta me.

The sea is relentless so anything that can be beefed up should be. That story just gives a good line item list of things that can go wrong. Good for peeps asking those bluewater questions. Need more stories like this. In fact, would be good to have a list somewhere.

I read it somewhere here that there is no such thing as a bluewater boat. Could it be true? I spend 4 years working on off-shore construction barges and ships during my 20's. I was once on a converted tanker (converted to a construction ship) that got caught in a pretty bad storm. We battened down and rode it out. By rode, I really mean it as these things, tho HUGE, have no propulsion of their own. It was like a toy in a bathtub. I saw the sea take huge pieces of equipment that had been lashed down with thick, heavy rope, and in some cases steel cable, ripped right off the deck! We probably would not have sank with everything sealed off, but we did almost flip (a TANKER!). We had to fill the bilges to the point of almost sinking just to keep that from happening. Is that bluewater? I guess it depends on your definition. If by bluewater people mean it won't sink, then yeah, but if by bluewater it means the sea can't harm it, then there's no such thing, unless you're in a sub I guess LOL.

By the way, that storm scared the hell out of me. But, a couple of years later, I bought a sailboat anyway.

Once you get salt in your veins....

And I do agree with alot of what I've read on this forum. It's what the sailors can sail. If a great seaman is on a crappy boat, and EVERYTHING goes wrong but the boat doesn't sink, you might see him later on with a paddle just pushing the thing into port like a raft.
 
#15 ·
The Wiki thinks this goes back to at least the 14th century:

For Want of a Nail

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

Same same on offshore voyaging. A simple gasket, and there goes the fresh water. A sheet fouling a hatch. The little things can add up and get you.
 
#16 ·
I think it is a combination of design, build quality, and crew competence. Any boat with a wide companionway that opens close to the cockpit sole and cabinetry/bulkheads that are attached with screws doesn't meet the build quality required. Catalina, Hunter and others are good boats for their intended purpose but offshore use, at least in the under 35' boats, isn't part of their intended use. All of these boats can be modified for offshore use - but some require much more modification than others.
 
#19 ·
Agreed. There is one possible seaberth, I'll bet there is no lee cloth.

The athwartships aft cabin is useless with any heel. Although you might able to wedge yourself in somehow.

The galley looks good for offshore.
 
#20 ·
Before you "dis" a boat you ought to have at least seen it in person. The little table Stb drops down to form a settee which is designed to turn into a "sea berth" (owner responsible for lee cloth). I have laid down on it and can personally testify that it is more than adequate for that purpose. I really like the cockpit layout on this boat and Catalina will sell it with a standard Selden mast and slab reefing so it meets one of my requirements for an ocean sailor. After sailing this boat I have only two minor critiques. One, she is relatively heavy and somewhat slow in light airs. But was a delight to sail in the twenty to thirty knot breezes in San Francisco Bay. My personal preference is to have the head aft as to not wake sleeping crew or track water throughout the cabin, but with all the other features on this boat I would make an allowance for it. This boat really spoke to me. Unfortunately, Mrs. B is holding out for a 40-42 footer. Disclosure: I am an experienced ocean racer (2nd place in the Pacific Cup to Hawaii) and a cruiser.

 
#22 ·
Interesting to note that even experienced delivery skippers can fall prey to unfounded rumours spread by "experts" at tiki bars all over the coast.

Sequitur

Here's a blog from a couple circumnavigating in style and comfort in a Hunter 49. They rounded Cape Horn last winter. They've had their share of the usual equipment problems, but, again, it's not the fault of the boat.
 
#23 ·
@Barquito

I think they said his problem was related to some kind of tear on the esophagus? Don't know if the tear came after the fact or what. One thing I wonder tho, is what the hell do you do if you're single-handing something and get sick? I guess you're kinda screwed.
 
#24 ·
I've had to work through a bout with flew before, it sucks.... ROYALLY!
 
#25 ·
I'm in the market for a bluewater. Used to have a cal 25 for years and sailed around in Galveston bay until I moved inland and sold it. I've been reading forums like this for awhile doing research to see what my next boat should be and have seen the question of "what bluewater boat to get," and "what makes a boat bluewater" etc.

I take some much from a story like this, from "make everything heavy duty as possible," to "have backup parts for items you can't move without," to "double check that everything works!" to "do drills with gear to make sure it works in a pinch" and the list goes on.

By the way, because of forums like these, I think I've narrowed it down to one of the heavier boats like an Alberg based on my budget. Thanks to all those here for the wealth of info.
I've said it before, I'll say it again... IMHO, the single best resource for addressing these criteria is John Rousmaniere's DESIRABLE AND UNDESIRABLE CHARACTERISTICS OF OFFSHORE YACHTS...

Don't take too seriously the comments of those who may opine that there is no such thing as a bluewater boat, or that most any plastic fantastic can be "modified" or "beefed up" for bluewater sailing...

Some boats and designs simply ARE far more suitable than others or most for such sailing, it's completely beyond me why some try so hard to deny this...
 
#37 ·
I never said any plastic fantastic could be modified. Some are plain and simply designed for coastal work.

Well, this could get into a very heated discussion. My dad owns (and I am part owner) of a Tayana Vancouver 42, which by most would be considered a "bluewater" boat. I have sailed a multitude of other boats. I will escape the Hunter comments because I have not owned one. However, I have not had those issues on a Catalina. I own a Catalin 400, have owned and cruised a Catalina 380 (the old Morgan hull 38 altered with a different top, incidentally), 320, and 250. And to be fair, Hunter has made some mistakes. But they have also made some well made boats. I understand teh 49 is a well made boat, but my knolwedge on that vessel other than the boat show is hearsay.

There are several lines of the Catalinas that are not meant to be offshore boats. They are not designed for that. The larger boats are and I am here to tell you they can and have been there. I have done it. I have the pics here too. I had no problems, at all. Never have. I also put my kids on board one and I guarantee you that I am very cautious about where and what we do as such.

Many of the failures attributed with these boats have less to do witht he boat and more to do with the equipment on board. If it is a hull-deck joint failure, that is the fault of the designer and yard. If the chain plate rips loose, that is a mfg issue or design issue. If the head fails, that is the fault of the head manufacturer. All things inside a sailboat are not manufactured by that sailboat. In fact, most of them are not: from winches, portholes, heads, electronics, batteries, running/standing rigging, etc. Why people fault the manufacturer for failures on those is beyond me. Now, if they were incorrectly installed at the mfg, that is an issue. But when discussing the fasability of a production boat going "offshore" when the vast percentage of the equipment on that boat trasncends to other manufacturers that are considered "bluewater", one needs to stand back and ask how much of this is a design failure and how much is a basic equipment failure that could happen to any manufacturer that uses that product.

The issue with many production boats for long term LA or cruising, in my opinion, is storage, handholds (on some models), and tankage. There are some other things, but that is a good start. I also have an issue with accessibility to systems which is more of a problem with some manufacturers than others, and some models over others.

One of the things I like about Valiants, for example, is that most of the entire boat is built THEN they put in all the plumbing and other systems. They do this to make sure things are accessible and removeable afterwards. It costs more to do that and it is shown in the price. Most production boats do not do that. Everything is assembled in stages to minimize man hours. However, I will tell you that I have yet to find anything on a Catalina that is not removeable. They have done a very good job on that. Incidentally, my boat was about 1000 feet from where tehy laid up the hulls for the Valiants (for many years) so I know the boats fairly well.

Tankage is an issue on production boats. I have seen them start trying to increase their tankage on some of the newer boats. But they are also taking away much of the cabinetry. Reason of course is costs, but I don't like it. Depending on the boat, you can correct the tankage issues. I know you can in the C400 an other larger boats. I also had to custom build cabinetry to increase my storage capacity. This is a real negative of production boats.

ANother thing I do not like about most production boats is their lifelines, which are too short. I strongly prefer the taller (30/36") lifelines versus the knee trippers they put on production boats. I have been in some nasty seas and have never gone over, but I do not like them.

I have no problem with the rigging on either the 380 or the C400. In fact, I have a separate trysail track on my mast which many higher end boats do not have. My chain plates are easily accessible and have never leaked. I have never had a hatch leaak and believe me, they have taken their share of being under a wave. I have had the portlights leak. This is not an uncmomon problem on any boat with portlights. THey simply had to be reset.

My hull to deck joint is a Internal Flange which is only used on the 400, 470 (and maybe the new 445). It does not and has never leaked. I have had no reports of a leaking H-D joint on any 400. I have not been tech editor of the other boats so do not know for sure as well.

I have had no reports of any steering failures on any C400. We had a problem with a sheave alignment on some models, but that was corrected.

Th bilges in the c400 up to HN#309ish are deep on every tack and drain to the middle.

The c400 is a perfomance cruiser like the 445. I did 9.4 coming across the gulf. THe 380 can barely get out of its own way. It is a very heavy, older desgned boat like I find many of the "bluewater" boats. I will never have another boat that does not perform well and meet or exceed hull speed. For example, my dad's Tayana is slower than crap and he is happy with 6 knots. At 6 knots, I am checking to make sure my anchor is still up.

Boats are trade-offs. I have said there is no such thing as a bluewater boat. I stand by that. I do believe there are boats better suited for long distance cruising, but it all comes with tradeoffs. Depending on he boat/manufacturer, you can modify these things to your prefernce and destination. The issue is that on some boats, to modify it for long distance crusiing, the cost to doso will exceed what it takes to just go out and get a boat for long distance cruising. That does not make the long distance cruising boat "better"... only better for that use.

I also believe the vast majority of the success of a vessel offshore stand with its crew and not with the boat. For those that want to argue that their Valiant can wihstand a Cat 5 hurricane offshore longer than my Catalina, I will not argue that point, except to say that I wouldn't be there in the first place. Next someone will say that if you are crossing the Atlantic, you may not get to choose your weather. I agree. But that is not to say that the typical weather encountered would not be survivable by a production boat witht eh right crew.

The point is to know your boat and yourself. Buy the boat for where you want to go and what you want to do. If you are hell bent on doing a circum, I don't think a Catalina is for you. You would probably b better off with a boat built for that purpose. It is not to say that a production boat could not, it is simply that the cost to change many of the things that I personally feel are necessary would be cost prohibitive (though I am personally about there... ugh). But buying a Valiant to go sit in the Keys or Bahmas I think is equally a bad decision, and maybe worse.

These are my opinions. I know Catalinas pretty well and am very happy with teh right boat for long distance cruising. I cannot comment on the Hunters as I have not owned one... but they are a completely different manufacturer and I do not think it is fair to group them together.

Brian
 
#26 ·
It doesn't matter to me...the water in my lake is brown....so my Catalina 25 doesn't need to be bluewater capable...there isn't any blue water in Eagle Mountain Lake....sometimes it's green...by the end of summer...but usually it's brown.
 
#28 ·
Tony - I took a Hunter 45cc off the west coast of Vancouver Island. When I posted the problems I had on CF I was lambasted. I would take a Hunter offshore AFTER some extensive modifications. I have sailed other Hunters in the protected waters of the Gulf Islands with no problems.

I happen to think the ISAF offshore race rules are good place to check if a vessel is ready for offshore. You may trust your vinyl coated lifelines, but some of the other guidelines are essential.

Here is the checklist for the Vic-Maui race. http://www.vicmaui.org/pdfs/VM2012 App B Final.pdf

I am bringing one of the boats back to Vancouver. Granted the boat is not comfortable. But the boat is safe.
 
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#35 ·
I would take a Hunter offshore AFTER some extensive modifications.
Rather than submit an edit, I think I would take a Hunter 50HC into bluewater.
 
#29 ·
Hunter did have a lot of problems in their boats made between about 1985-1999. At which point they got a new designer who changes the entire build culture, and made the boats much better.

Again I am not saying I think Hunters are the best built boats in the world, but I know new boats from even the traditional bluewater yards that have come screwed up. Like a S/S Swan with no washers on the winch bolts... or a Hinkley where someone forgot to fully tighten a keel bolt.

Even the best screw up, they just screw up less.
 
#30 · (Edited)
My Catalina 34 MkII, built in 2000 has all Lewmar Ocean Series hatches. She also is equiped with a M35B diesel from Universal/Westerbeke (Kubota block) with a Racor primary filter. I have Lewmar 48’s as primaries and Lewmar 30’s on the coach roof and also as secondary’s. My navigation suite is Raymarine and steering is Edson.
 
#36 ·
In a singlehanded race from Frisco to Hawaii, a Seattle boat, which had been lived aboard for the winter, won. While the California boats , which had not been lived aboard in any winter rainstorms, leaked like sieves, the Seattle sailor was warm and dry the whole way. Living aboard in Seattle had given him the opportunity to find and cure any leaks he found.
When I asked a friend I met in Mexico who was cruising in a Catalina 36 , if he planned to cross the Pacific , he said "No way. I've seen what more experienced offshore cruisers cruise in, and there is no way I would consider a Catalina to be up to the job."
With the Fukashima debris field out there, I wouldn't consider going across the Pacific in any boat which was not made of metal. I have zero deck or hatch leaks. What he encountered would have been zero boat problems for my boats.
Another lesson from this story is "keep it simple" It was the complexity of his wheel steering system, water tank arrangement, hatches, etc etc which gave him his technical problems.
Albergs can be drastically improved, by taking the rudder off the keel , and putting a vertical rudder at the aft end of the waterline, on a good strong skeg, at the back of the boat, where it belongs. A friend who circumnavigated on an Alberg 37,said he sure wished he had done that, before his circumnavigation.
 
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