Hoax distress call - Page 3 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree8Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #21  
Old 06-16-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 8,694
Thanks: 10
Thanked 113 Times in 107 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: Hoax distress call

The actual operating cost for one helo is probably a couple thousand an hour, excluding the personnel. Fuel plus accrued engine time to overhaul. Adds up fast, but I do suspect the total reported number is inflated by cost that would be incurred anyway, ie payroll.

If you think the NY/NJ ports aren't terrorist targets, you have your head in the sand. They are considered among the top threat.

Despite all of this, anyone who consciously does what this hoax caller did should spend a month in jail and reimburse the rest of us for paying for it.
chef2sail likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #22  
Old 06-16-2012
smurphny's Avatar
Over Hill Sailing Club
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Adirondacks NY
Posts: 2,678
Thanks: 48
Thanked 56 Times in 54 Posts
Rep Power: 6
smurphny is on a distinguished road
Re: Hoax distress call

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
I would suggest that this is a good time for sailors to make a little noise in an effort to help the USCG with this problem.

For 30 years, count 'em, the USCG has been asking Congress for money for VHF/RDF equipment. The same equipment that charter fishing boats use so they can see where the competition really is whenever they make a radio call. Not the old RDF that you manually spin to fix, but an array like the LoJack antennas on police cars. Four little sticks, some electronics and lights that say "THAT WAY" to point out where a transmission is coming from in real time.

This type of RDF equipment is off-the-shelf mature technology and the USCG was supposed to have it budgeted and deployed to most shore stations long ago, finally as part of their What was it, 2001 master upgrade plan? But instead the equipment budget gets shot down, the USCG can never tell where a call is coming from, and they spend in this case an estimate $400,000 and climbing. Totally wasted on a hoax.

Congress won't give them the money to detect and stop hoaxes. Congress won't even give them the money to man the station radios, some of the watch officers are actually civilian (CGAux) volunteers.

Pennywise poundfoolish? You bet. And right now if you contact your local news media and your Congresscritter, maybe we can push to get that equipment budgeted by embarrassing them all.

It won't solve all the problems, but it is the obvious and effective first step to stopping many false responses.
The USCG used to use VHF/RDF as their primary close-in location method. The procedure was that boats in trouble would do a count down so that the CG vessel could home in on exact location. Has this equipment been removed in the last 20 yrs?
__________________
Alberg 35: With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #23  
Old 06-16-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 8,694
Thanks: 10
Thanked 113 Times in 107 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: Hoax distress call

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris12345 View Post
Doubt that: They probably can't even carry that much fuel, let alone burn it in one hour. For overhaul only the fraction of the engine-time-based cost would count, and only that for flight time above normal routine flight time.
Don' forget, they play with those machines just to keep them operational and in training, even without any emergency.
Are you just relying on your gut, because that's a pretty uneducated position. The Dolphin has twin turbines with 3500 hr TBO and mid-life hot sections on half million dollar engines. I'm going to estimate they drink near 100 gallons per hr and she carries well more than that. My estimate is probably pretty good. Wonder what your doubt was based on.

And, no, military pilots get very little flight time anymore. They do not get to just fly around all day.

Quote:
Pure paranoia, in my opinion. Vikings are going to attack the Staten Island ferry. Duh.
Also uneducated.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #24  
Old 06-16-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 8,694
Thanks: 10
Thanked 113 Times in 107 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: Hoax distress call

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris12345 View Post
Doubt that: They probably can't even carry that much fuel, let alone burn it in one hour. For overhaul only the fraction of the engine-time-based cost would count, and only that for flight time above normal routine flight time.
Don' forget, they play with those machines just to keep them operational and in training, even without any emergency.
Are you just relying on your gut, because that's a pretty uneducated position. The Dolphin has twin turbines with 3500 hr TBO and mid-life hot sections on half million dollar engines. I'm going to estimate they drink near 100 gallons per hr and she carries well more than that. My estimate is probably pretty good. Wonder what your doubt was based on.

And, no, military pilots get very little flight time anymore. They do not get to just fly around all day.

Quote:
Pure paranoia, in my opinion. Vikings are going to attack the Staten Island ferry. Duh.
Also uneducated. The ferry certainly isn't the potential target.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #25  
Old 06-16-2012
hellosailor's Avatar
Plausible Deniability
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,436
Thanks: 1
Thanked 76 Times in 74 Posts
Rep Power: 10
hellosailor has a spectacular aura about hellosailor has a spectacular aura about
Re: Hoax distress call

Vikings: Who fortunately went Viking as a pastime, for sport and profit, and then wanted to return home to enjoy their mead and bring in the crops. If the Vikings had had any skill or desire at conquest and subjugation, Roman style, we'd all be speaking Norse! After all, they did sack, burn, capture, pillage, plunder just about 100% of the known world in their time.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #26  
Old 06-17-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 8,694
Thanks: 10
Thanked 113 Times in 107 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: Hoax distress call

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris12345 View Post
My doubt is based on dividing your 'couple of thousand per hour', say $3000, by the price of jet fuel, below $3 per gallon, which gives me a consumption of beyond 1000 gallons per hour. Or really pricey maintenance.
How do you get 3 out of a couple?

Jet A is more like $6 per gallon, although, Uncle Sam may pay less. Fuel burn alone is probably close to $600/hr.

Yes, turbine maintenance is extraordinarily expensive. I will bet it is $50k to $100k per year just to keep them flying with routine maintenance, much of which is proportional to the hours flown. Plus, the engine accrual is easier to determine, when you have two extraordinarily expensive engines that need to be replaced/overhauled every 3500 hrs to the tune of hundreds of thousands each. Then there are the rotors, landing gear, etc.

Quote:
You said that on the Vikings, resp. me saying that they are likely not coming:
So you fear the Vikings ARE going to take NYC?
Conspiracy theory.
That is not coherent. You mentioned the Vikings, to make your uneducated point about there being no threat to NYC ports. The ports are a target.

You're entitled to your opinion, which seems little more than that.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #27  
Old 06-17-2012
hellosailor's Avatar
Plausible Deniability
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,436
Thanks: 1
Thanked 76 Times in 74 Posts
Rep Power: 10
hellosailor has a spectacular aura about hellosailor has a spectacular aura about
Re: Hoax distress call

"Doubt that: They probably can't even carry that much fuel, let alone burn it in one hour. "
Fuel consumption and range of the Dolphin and most other aircrat are easily found online.
The USCG flies the Doplhin HH65A and says:

http://www.uscg.mil/d13/docs/factshe...65_dolphin.pdf

It carries under 300 gallons, has a normal operating range of 150 miles (150 out, 150 back) with a total of 400 miles maximum, or an endurance (stay in the air) of 3.5 hours. Which would indicate a "best fuel economy" speed around 114mph, roughly 100 knots, versus a top speed of 165 knots.

That will all vary greatly with payload (including crew weight), weather, headwinds, time spent on hover (which burns fuel quickly) and of course, whether anyone wants to violate orders by going into their reserve fuel. Do you dispatch at 165 knots, to get out quickly? Or at 100 knots, so you can remain on the scene to search longer?

NYPD has less to say about their helicopters (Bell 212 and variants like the 412EP) which are similar with more many options, Bell has a laundry list of them online. About a dozen in all. And then there are the NJSP. And the NY Guard, who are flying UH-60 military aircraft (Blackhawk, etc.) some equipped with mid-air refueling capabilities. I don't think those were dispatched to this call, some of the air rescue units may have been sent overseas. But specs for all of them are generally available online, no need to guess what they can do beyond guessing which options the NYPD bought.

Still, the port of NY is not a major target, it hasn't been a major freight hub in decades. Containerships and, ah, the lack of Teamsters, took that business over to NJ. NY is still a target rich environment, but other than storming and toppling the Statue of Liberty? Not so much to do here. The media speculation about "swatting" aka simple hoaxing by nutjobs, seems more likely. Why would a raghead take a chance on drawing attention, or getting caught making a hoax call, when all the "response" information they need can be found for free? How does the old joke go, "I may be crazy but call call me stupid" ?

Last edited by hellosailor; 06-17-2012 at 09:34 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #28  
Old 06-17-2012
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,828
Thanks: 28
Thanked 53 Times in 49 Posts
Rep Power: 7
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: Hoax distress call

I don't think the terrorists are after the container ships in NY. Working here in Washington DC at the place I do, I have contact with many FBI and HS security people. DC and NY are the top two targets because of populations, national symbols and mass transit. NY is the banking capitol of the US with Wall Street as well as the largest city with the largest mass transit. It is a Symbol of America. DC obviously a target with the seat of govt and s ybols abound. To say they are not the top targets are the musings of someone uninformed.

Is not expert on planes, by beleive Minnie is a pilot of some king and probably has a good handle on information as to the cost of their maintainence.

If they catch the perpetuators of the hoax, they should get jail time as we as costs of the hoax.

Dave
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


ďSailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.Ē- Dennis Conner
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #29  
Old 06-17-2012
hellosailor's Avatar
Plausible Deniability
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,436
Thanks: 1
Thanked 76 Times in 74 Posts
Rep Power: 10
hellosailor has a spectacular aura about hellosailor has a spectacular aura about
Re: Hoax distress call

"I don't think the terrorists are after the container ships in NY. "
Somehow, "Look, we blew up Brooklyn!" or "the backside of Staten Island!" doesn't have the same cache as attacking Manhattan, aka "New York" to the rest of the world. The authorities here are more concerned about attacks on the harbor bridges and tunnels or a dirty bomb, and rightfully so. The container facilities are largely redundant and easily replaced by the ones in too many other locations.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #30  
Old 06-17-2012
smurphny's Avatar
Over Hill Sailing Club
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Adirondacks NY
Posts: 2,678
Thanks: 48
Thanked 56 Times in 54 Posts
Rep Power: 6
smurphny is on a distinguished road
Re: Hoax distress call

The old commercial docks alongside NYC/Hudson are not in use except for mainly tourist activities. There are not thousands of containers as in other ports. NYC docks are not, it seems, a good platform for any kind of attack except that they do provide a place to pull up right alongside the heart of NYC. There are many large commercial ships that ply the Hudson every day which have to be a concern. Any one of these could be a threat. There is not a whole lot of obvious l.e. presence around NY Harbor but there has got to be a lot of surveillance and technology in place. I don't believe for a moment, when I pass up and down the Hudson or the East River within a few hundred feet of shore that someone has not identified exactly who I am. Every ship or tanker that passes under the Verrazano Narrows or Throgs Neck Bridge has surely been thoroughly cleared. I believe NYC is still THE main target of terrorists (what is left of them) but they've been, it seems, a bit preoccupied, looking overhead and listening for the buzz of drones and trying to replace their dwindling leadership.
__________________
Alberg 35: With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Overturned sailboat issues distress call in waters off eastern Maine - The Republic NewsReader News Feeds 0 10-11-2011 12:20 AM
Coast Guard: Hoax distress calls costly, dangerous - Houston Chronicle NewsReader News Feeds 0 09-25-2011 06:10 PM
Bogus distress call costs man $29000 - KPUA NewsReader News Feeds 0 05-02-2007 12:15 PM
*Dornoch Firth hoax call (Government News Network) NewsReader News Feeds 0 12-31-2006 02:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:52 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.