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  #551  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: The future of the sailing world. Why are there so few young people cruising??

Now, in all seriousness the issue is not money. It is not computer games. It is not that the young people are too easily distracted or become bored too easily. I believe it is much worse.

In our schools today we start teaching children that competition is bad about the time they should have been learning to become winners. I was shocked to learn that in kids sports today they actually play without keeping score so that nobody wins or loses. We who sail know that in life there are winners, and there are also losers, and we have been on both sides of that equation and we prefer being winners. We strive to do more than just the status quo, we work hard in our jobs to save money to pursue our goals and dreams. We know that going into debt is a form of slavery, it is putting the control of your life into the hands of the entity or person loaning you the money. So, being averse to being enslaved, we save our money and pay cash for boats, we work on them ourselves, and we come to see the beauty in a thing well done. We feel the pain of moving our bodies in ways that we have not done in a long while when we cram ourselves into some tight spot in and awkward position to repair or replace some part. We have had the sore shoulders and neck that come from sanding a hull or grinding out those little dimples and bubbles where the bottom has voids in it that fill with water and cause hull problems. We learn to use tools that we would not normally use, we learn to be self sufficient, to stand alone and survive against the elements, and we come out winners. Proud to have accomplished the feats which we have accomplished, and we know that there were times when we failed, and it was bitter.

Teach a young person to win, and to suffer loss and recover from it and persevere against obstacles. Teach a young person that losing is not a permanent condition unless you allow it to become one. Teach a young person that it actually takes hard work and paying attention to detail in order to succeed in life or in sports and in sailing and you will see young people achieve excellence.

If you are not teaching a young person to sail, you are part of the reason why there are fewer young people involved in sailing and cruising. If you teach a young man to go in the right way, he will not depart from it when he is older. The inverse is also true.
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  #552  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: The future of the sailing world. Why are there so few young people cruising??

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWollard View Post
First, I'm still in short pants. I live in Florida.

You seem to get it, how about some perspective from the other Silver Tuna's?

(note, I've been cracking myself up coming up with funny names for old sailors: Silver Tuna's, Grey Gulls, Teaks, etc.)
We're just the next generation of Archie Bunkers. Nothing's changed, including aging and cynicism, which I think is partly hereditary.

Kids are just as fantastic today as they were in the last generation. The great thing I see are the improvements every generation gleans. I've watched a whole town of kids go from tykes to adults along with my two kids. It's amazing how much has changed for the better. There's always some stuff that isn't so great, too(same as always).

There's a lot of kids that sail here(coast of Maine),at least as many as when I grew up. I didn't know any kids cruising when I was in my 20's. I'm a teak, I guess.
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  #553  
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Re: The future of the sailing world. Why are there so few young people cruising??

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Originally Posted by mark2gmtrans View Post
... I think the issue you have with the tech is sort of related to envy, and that is sad.

.
No, it's not envy. If that is all you got from my post,. you missed my point entirely.
See, you're not out there.

because you're still here, making the cash to buy the stuff you believe you NEED out there.
And every day you spend here is one more day you're not out there, and it's never 100% guaranteed that tomorrow's gonna come.


I understand that you want the luxuries and like the technology. I get that. i like cool stuff too. and I understand that you think your experience with freshwater RO on the hard in texas qualifies you to understand that nothing will go wrong with a saltwater watermaker in the middle of nowhere , or the power system to power it. But, just in case, you know, you might not know everything and have thought of every contingency, or considered other options, many cruisers do quite well with a rainwater catchment system, or they carry jerrycans. When i lightheartedly offered you a bottle of water, i didn't mean to suggest that i carry cases of bottled water. We keep a handful of empty bottles on board as loaners- too often we meet people on the water, who underestimated how much they would need to drink on an afternoon daysail. many cruisers with watermakers have jugs and collection systems as a backup- because stuff does break. when you least want it to. even when maintained religiously.
another point- do you think your chartplotter is any more accurate than charts "after a storm?"

I don't think i know anybody who has $2000 worth of charts on board. In fact, i'd be hard pressed to find a way to spend $2000 on charts for a circumnavigation

No i don't have tech envy. I'm posting this from my boat, which maybe the most ridiculously overequipped 23 footer ever. I'm just pointing out that you don't NEED the stuff you WANT to go cruising. You just need to work longer to pay for it, which means you don't leave sooner, which means you spend less time out there....
and it's always cheaper to get all the gear you want installed in the caribbean.


I don't envy anybody who is still here, and not out there.
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  #554  
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Re: The future of the sailing world. Why are there so few young people cruising??

Quote:
Originally Posted by bljones View Post
No, it's not envy. If that is all you got from my post,. you missed my point entirely.
See, you're not out there.

because you're still here, making the cash to buy the stuff you believe you NEED out there.
And every day you spend here is one more day you're not out there, and it's never 100% guaranteed that tomorrow's gonna come.


I understand that you want the luxuries and like the technology. I get that. i like cool stuff too. and I understand that you think your experience with freshwater RO on the hard in texas qualifies you to understand that nothing will go wrong with a saltwater watermaker in the middle of nowhere , or the power system to power it. But, just in case, you know, you might not know everything and have thought of every contingency, or considered other options, many cruisers do quite well with a rainwater catchment system, or they carry jerrycans. When i lightheartedly offered you a bottle of water, i didn't mean to suggest that i carry cases of bottled water. We keep a handful of empty bottles on board as loaners- too often we meet people on the water, who underestimated how much they would need to drink on an afternoon daysail. many cruisers with watermakers have jugs and collection systems as a backup- because stuff does break. when you least want it to. even when maintained religiously.
another point- do you think your chartplotter is any more accurate than charts "after a storm?"

I don't think i know anybody who has $2000 worth of charts on board. In fact, i'd be hard pressed to find a way to spend $2000 on charts for a circumnavigation

No i don't have tech envy. I'm posting this from my boat, which maybe the most ridiculously overequipped 23 footer ever. I'm just pointing out that you don't NEED the stuff you WANT to go cruising. You just need to work longer to pay for it, which means you don't leave sooner, which means you spend less time out there....
and it's always cheaper to get all the gear you want installed in the caribbean.


I don't envy anybody who is still here, and not out there.
You are right, I am not CURRENTLY out there. I have been WAY out there, more than once. I have done a wee bit of sailing, both on my own boats, and on the boats of friends. I have been cruising, and not in local waters. I have dealt with the officials in foreign ports as a captain on my own vessel, gotten clearances in and out and the zarpes needed to show to the next port captain. I have sailed in a tropical storm that was making for hurricane strength at the time it hit us, and I have sailed into unknown poorly charted waters, very very slowly and carefully. I have yet to gouge a hole in my hull, because I know that I need to go slow, and I know that the charts in some areas are poor at best, and just plain nuts in others.

The amount I was talking about for paper was not just for charts, but also for guides and so forth, and while the number seems high, trust me a circumnavigation can spend a lot on charts alone, not including guides to bays and anchorages.

I have had both the manual and the electric RO water making systems on my boats, so I know about the problems, you see I am not a virgin sailor, I am just not on or owning a boat today, but that is because I sold mine in order to be able to work here to prepare to buy another one equipped to sail around the world. I am not looking to sail around a lake, or a bay, but around a continent...or two.

I rarely encounter issues with charts either electronic or paper here in the US, but sail to Brazil, Surinam, French Guyana, Guyana, Venezuela, and so forth and you will find quiet a few issues with charts. You will love that radar overlaying the chart and sonar data, it will help you to use all of your senses and also give you a way to single hand in very shallow waters in a much larger vessel than you could without it.

If you take into account the need to update charts often, especially in areas where the coast is hit often by storms, you would think about the whole idea of using all of the above, paper, GPS, Radar, Sonar, and anything else you can get, so that you sail informed and in safety. I know that you may not have been in the places I have been, and you can rest assured that you have been in places I have not, but when I stand at the helm under the stars and look up at the view above my masts I have a strong desire to sail as safely as I can while still enjoying the thrill of it all. I desire little more than I desire to return to the sea.

My last boat had a few goodies on it, the one before had more and the one before that had almost nothing, I learned to sail by doing it, I read books, and studied a bit, but I finally just bought myself a boat, and went out and sailed it. I have since gone to some classes, and such, and I intend to go again, but I have sailed over 10,000 miles in blue water.... so I may have some idea of what I need to make me feel comfortable, and keep my crew, when I have one, safe.
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  #555  
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Re: The future of the sailing world. Why are there so few young people cruising??

I wasn't questioning your creds, I was questioning how you got envy from my post.
but thanks for the info.

if you think charts are expensive, wait until you price nav cards.
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Re: The future of the sailing world. Why are there so few young people cruising??

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Originally Posted by bljones View Post
I wasn't questioning your creds, I was questioning how you got envy from my post.
but thanks for the info.

if you think charts are expensive, wait until you price nav cards.
I have, and they are high as all get out, but they also have updates that come along fairly often included in the prices most of the time. Also when you buy the original stupid expensive unit it comes loaded with the US charts, the Caribbean, and a deep discount on others when you bundle them at the same time. I may have to work one more month in the oilfield to pay for all of them, but since I am able and the space I save on board can be used for other things I am willing.

I have looked into getting some national charts for other countries that are in the formats needed, and are done by the equivalent of our NOAA/USGS and so forth. There are some, though you have to dig deep to find them and they are not always as good as the ones you pay for, so I am loading them onto a rugged tablet pc and a rugged laptop as references. I also have loaded quite a few ebooks and guides, which I get at a reduced price because they are electronic and not on paper. What we must remember is that the chart plotter only tells where we are, where we have been and a possible route to our next destination if we ask for it. It cannot sail the boat alone, it can help a lot, kind of like crew, or the auto helm or wind vane, but it will not climb the mast to unstick a pulley that has jammed. It will not make me breakfast, or coffee or do some other crew type things below decks ( I like my crew female and friendly, but that is not always the case on either of those) and it may talk to me, but it cannot tell me stories about where it has been and the funny little guy with the purple boat. This is why I get on here, that and to piss tropic cat off in another forum...
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Re: The future of the sailing world. Why are there so few young people cruising??

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Originally Posted by mark2gmtrans View Post

... We strive to do more than just the status quo, we work hard in our jobs to save money to pursue our goals and dreams. We know that going into debt is a form of slavery, it is putting the control of your life into the hands of the entity or person loaning you the money. So, being averse to being enslaved, we save our money and pay cash for boats, we work on them ourselves, and we come to see the beauty in a thing well done.
While I subscribe to that approach myself, I think you may be overestimating the percentage of sailors today who do likewise... I'm generally laughed at on sailing forums at whenever I refer to my father's Old School words of advice to "Never, EVER finance a toy...", and I can think of few others I know who've done as I have, and limited themselves to a boat they could pay cash for, or afford to self-insure or potentially lose... I'm certainly not seeing it in the delivery business, I'd venture I could count on one hand the number of clients over the last couple of decades who have not financed the purchase of their boats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bljones View Post
I don't think i know anybody who has $2000 worth of charts on board. In fact, i'd be hard pressed to find a way to spend $2000 on charts for a circumnavigation...
Well, plan a cruise of Atlantic Canada - Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, and Labrador - and you'll find you can easily run up such a tab... No need to ask me how I know this... (grin)





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Re: The future of the sailing world. Why are there so few young people cruising??

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While I subscribe to that approach myself, I think you may be overestimating the percentage of sailors today who do likewise... I'm generally laughed at on sailing forums at whenever I refer to my father's Old School words of advice to "Never, EVER finance a toy...", and I can think of few others I know who've done as I have, and limited themselves to a boat they could pay cash for, or afford to self-insure or potentially lose... I'm certainly not seeing it in the delivery business, I'd venture I could count on one hand the number of clients over the last couple of decades who have not financed the purchase of their boats...



Well, plan a cruise of Atlantic Canada - Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, and Labrador - and you'll find you can easily run up such a tab... No need to ask me how I know this... (grin)





Man that is beautiful! And I was not just pulling the numbers out of me bilge, I have not had to buy them in a long while but cruise the coast from Corpus Christi Texas down to Sao Luis Brazil, make a few stops in the Caribbean and then come back up...it ain't cheap for charts.
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Re: The future of the sailing world. Why are there so few young people cruising??

I don't want to sound like a conspiracy nut but....our government would rather people stay in one place, doing one thing and staying that way. The way the job markets are set up, out culture, our sociology, marketing....it all stresses we should follow the same path, college, job, house, wife and kids, staying in the same job devoting out life to progressing in that job....our economy reflects this too....at one time you saved up your money by working all your life then retired to reap the benefits of your work....now a days we live in a debtor society, through credit you can emulate people in a higher position than you are in...you can reach all those goals a "successful" individual is supposed to gain NOW....you just have to go into debt and pay on this all your life. This worked when it was understood you WILL advance in your job, you WILL make more money and your employment WILL be stable and guarantee success/advancement....this isn't working any more. Marketing making you think you NEED a 6 figure boat to do anything doesn't help much either. People no long seek to enjoy life....the idea is a remote dream.
The "youth" (or anyone else for that matter) no longer seek to pursue the dream of sailing off into the tropical sunset
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Old 06-20-2013
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Re: The future of the sailing world. Why are there so few young people cruising??

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
While I subscribe to that approach myself, I think you may be overestimating the percentage of sailors today who do likewise... I'm generally laughed at on sailing forums at whenever I refer to my father's Old School words of advice to "Never, EVER finance a toy...", and I can think of few others I know who've done as I have, and limited themselves to a boat they could pay cash for, or afford to self-insure or potentially lose... I'm certainly not seeing it in the delivery business, I'd venture I could count on one hand the number of clients over the last couple of decades who have not financed the purchase of their boats...



Well, plan a cruise of Atlantic Canada - Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, and Labrador - and you'll find you can easily run up such a tab... No need to ask me how I know this... (grin)





You mean you can finance a boat? Why would anyone do such a thing! They cost enough to own without paying someone a finance charge for the opportunity. Never! I am with your dad on this one Jon!

Want to sell some of those charts? Cheap?

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