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  #21  
Old 07-03-2012
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Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Not ALL of them are aware, I'm afraid...

On the Friday afternoon prior to Memorial Day, I was running this Gozzard 44 up the Hudson, on a delivery from Annapolis out to Cleveland...



In Haverstraw Bay, I was flagged down and boarded by watercops from the Marine Division of the Ossining, NY police department... I had apparently attracted their attention due to the lack of registration numbers on the hull, the fact that the boat had the previous owner's homeport of "VAIL, COLORADO" on the transom, and there was an inflatable with very faintly legible Maryland registration numbers hanging from the stern davits...

Clearly, at least from their perspective, I had some 'splainin to do... (grin)

The sole documentation I had aboard were copies of the bill of sale, and a running letter from a documentation service that the application for a new documentation was underway... However, these guys were definitely under the impression that even a documented vessel required a state registration (in this case, Ohio), to be displayed... Took a LONG time, several phone calls to the owner, to get that one sorted out...

It had been years since I was last boarded, and one thing I wasn't aware of... the boarding/safety inspection form I was eventually issued was the same one from Homeland Security that the CG uses - I hadn't realized that local municipalities have apparently been entrusted to perform the same sort of boardings/inspections that the CG has...

Learn something new every day, I suppose... But that one was a surprise, to me...
I recognize that scene very well. Have made the trip for years and always anchor/fuel up in Haverstraw. Have even anchored in between Haverstraw and the Bear Mt. Bridge, right in front of the Indian Point Nuclear Plant and have never been accosted. My boat has only a NYS sticker/no numbers. The police boat has cruised by on occasion but has never boarded, just waved hello and proceeded on their way. I did not even have a NYS sticker until last year. With NY Harbor being so close, just speculating that LE must have a list of "confirmed" vessels and if not on the list, it triggers a boarding.
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  #22  
Old 07-03-2012
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Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

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Originally Posted by RhythmDoctor View Post

Does the presence of this number on the sticker now make its posting prohibited by the Feds? (Sorry, I do not have a documented vessel, so I don't know if PA requires reg stickers on documented boats.)
Pennsylvania, does require the registration sticker to be displayed on documented vessels.

I wouldn't think that because the actual registration number is also on the sticker itself now in PA. it would violate the vessel marking rules of documentation.

This from the FAQ. page of the NVDC:

IS A DOCUMENTED VESSEL EXEMPT FROM STATE JURISDICTION?
No, all documented vessels must comply with the laws of the state in which they are operated. The vessel's document must be shown to state law enforcement personnel upon their demand. States may require documented vessels to be registered (but not numbered) and to display state decals showing that they have complied with state requirements.

While it doesn't address the specific point that you bring up, the intent is to allow the states to identify those that are in " State" compliance.
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  #23  
Old 07-03-2012
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Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

Ossining. Home of SingSing Correctional Facility, or whatever they call it these days. I wouldn't have thought they had any jurisdiction on the Haverstraw (other) side of the Hudson.

But either way, they must have been bored. NYS law says a vessel does not need NYS registration AT ALL unless it has been in the navigable waters of NYS for more than 90 days. Have it hauled overnight once every 89 days and you can keep it here forever, without registering the boat.

"I'm bored, let's go see if THAT BOAT has any donuts on board!"

Best bumper sticker I ever did see belongs to someone who must have a set of brass balls. It said "BAD COP! NO DONUT!"

Whatever happened to "probable cause" ? I say, if they can't quote the Bill of Rights, they can't be Peace Officers. And they get one try to get it right, no retakes on that exam.

I'm really wondering if President Roberts [sic] clever little rewrite of the Constitution last Friday isn't going to put Obama out of office this fall...
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  #24  
Old 07-03-2012
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Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post

But either way, they must have been bored. NYS law says a vessel does not need NYS registration AT ALL unless it has been in the navigable waters of NYS for more than 90 days. Have it hauled overnight once every 89 days and you can keep it here forever, without registering the boat.
A little mis-leading. All ' applicable" NYS vessels need to be registered.

Out of state vessels operating in NY waters also need a valid registration from another state. They are allowed to operate in NYS waters for 90 days with their out of state registration. There's no pass on registration that I can see.

In Jon's case...it sounds like the vessel wasn't registered yet in Ohio..nor was the documentation process completed. It had a maryland registered dinghy..(old?) and an outdated hailing port..probably expired documentation...

Jon offers no details on how it got resolved. But, It sounds like he was given some professional courtesy.
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  #25  
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Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

Tempest, last time I read the NYS laws, which are DMV laws here, there was no requirement for vessels to have any registration at all unless they were in state waters for 90 days. UNlike Foriduh, transients are not required to have registrations from other states. If you can cite me a piece of DMV code that says otherwise, I'd appreciate it. But that would impose a burden on other states to have registration rules, which NY can't impose.

Watercops are still watercops, not Coasties. And cops of any kind are not supposed to interfere with vehicles of any kind absent "reasonable suspicion". If there's a name and hailing port on the stern, there's no reason to suspect anything other than "that's a federally documented vessel" and there's no reason to interfere with one of those.

"Oh, Look, it says "Exxon Valdez" but it doesn't have registration numbers on the bow, let's pull it over!"

Ridiculous, right? All same-same.
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  #26  
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Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

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Originally Posted by Tempest View Post
A little mis-leading. All ' applicable" NYS vessels need to be registered.

Out of state vessels operating in NY waters also need a valid registration from another state. They are allowed to operate in NYS waters for 90 days with their out of state registration. There's no pass on registration that I can see.
What if you come from a state (like VA where I live) that doesn't require state registration for CG documented boats? Does that mean I can't take my boat into NY waters?
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  #27  
Old 07-03-2012
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Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Tempest, last time I read the NYS laws, which are DMV laws here, there was no requirement for vessels to have any registration at all unless they were in state waters for 90 days. UNlike Foriduh, transients are not required to have registrations from other states. If you can cite me a piece of DMV code that says otherwise, I'd appreciate it. But that would impose a burden on other states to have registration rules, which NY can't impose.

Watercops are still watercops, not Coasties. And cops of any kind are not supposed to interfere with vehicles of any kind absent "reasonable suspicion". If there's a name and hailing port on the stern, there's no reason to suspect anything other than "that's a federally documented vessel" and there's no reason to interfere with one of those.

"Oh, Look, it says "Exxon Valdez" but it doesn't have registration numbers on the bow, let's pull it over!"


Ridiculous, right? All same-same.
NYS DMV - Recreational Transportation Here's the DMV site.

and the NYS parks and Recreation site. http://www.nysparks.com/recreation/b...atersGuide.pdf


NYS can, and has imposed a law, that says you must either be registered in NYS, or..in another state. ( or at least in compliance with the home state's requirements.) A recreationally documented vessel is not exempt from state registration laws..


And that's the vessel. We haven't touched on what the operator may require in order to operate.
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  #28  
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Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

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Originally Posted by chuck53 View Post
What if you come from a state (like VA where I live) that doesn't require state registration for CG documented boats? Does that mean I can't take my boat into NY waters?
From Virginia's Dept of Game and Inland Fisheries:

Documented Vessels
Vessels documented by the U.S. Coast Guard cannot be titled in Virginia. Though there is no requirement that documented vessels be registered, owners may register them if desired. The registration decals may be useful if traveling to another state that requires display of registration decals. Contact the Department for an application or use the application provided at this site and prominently write "Documented Vessel" at the top.


Probably not an issue..since Va. doesn't require it. As Long as you have your documentation papers. It wouldn't hurt to ask.
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  #29  
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Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

Tempest, in NYS, a pretty color brochure like the one from the parks department has no legal standing. The *only* laws are those put forth in the written statutes. If you go to court with the pretty book, the judge is under no obligation to look at it. What he is obliged to look at, is a properly certified copy of the DMV handbook, or other copy of the actual statutues.

Your DMV web page also has no legal standing, it is NOT the same as the statutes. You may also notice that it says:
"What if my boat is documented by the US Coast Guard?
You must register the boat in NYS if:
...the boat will be used on public waterways in NYS for 90 or more consecutive days."

See? Yes, the boat must be registered, but it must be registered according to the full statutes, which also happen to say it does NOT need to be registered unless it is in the waters for 90+ days. That may not seem right--but if you read the statutes, that's what they say. And ONLY the full statutes have legal standing. In this case, the NYS VTL, Vehicle and Traffic Law.

Our DMV and Tax Department even have conflicting web pages posted regarding who and how sales/use tax is applied to "vehicles" brought in from out of state. But the web pages don't matter, even if they misinform the public. Only the actual code matters.

And yes, I've corresponded with the DMV on this specific point. They said if the boat wasn't "on the waters" of NY for 90 days? No registration required.

Chuck?
Definitely not a problem. If you are legal in your home state, you are legal in NY state. However, if you are here more than 90? 180? days you will have to re-register the boat here, the same way that you would in almost every state. So make sure you spend a night OUT of NY after 89 days.

OTOH be careful about NJ. NJ passed a new law 2? years ago, requiring the operators of ALL motor vessels to either have a NJ operators certificate, or one from their home state. If your home state doesn't have or offer one...in theory you'd need to get a NJ certificate or stay out of Jersey waters. Some dumbie forgot to include "national" certificates (i.e. online boating courses) in their statute, although I strongly hope the NJ watercops would honor those anyway.
I'm pretty damned sure the NJ law violates federal laws for vessels in transit but have no desire to be the poster boy for that case.

Last edited by hellosailor; 07-03-2012 at 06:12 PM.
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  #30  
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Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Tempest, in NYS, a pretty color brochure like the one from the parks department has no legal standing. The *only* laws are those put forth in the written statutes. If you go to court with the pretty book, the judge is under no obligation to look at it. What he is obliged to look at, is a properly certified copy of the DMV handbook, or other copy of the actual statutues.

Your DMV web page also has no legal standing, it is NOT the same as the statutes. You may also notice that it says:
"What if my boat is documented by the US Coast Guard?
You must register the boat in NYS if:
...the boat will be used on public waterways in NYS for 90 or more consecutive days."

See? Yes, the boat must be registered, but it must be registered according to the full statutes, which also happen to say it does NOT need to be registered unless it is in the waters for 90+ days. That may not seem right--but if you read the statutes, that's what they say. And ONLY the full statutes have legal standing. In this case, the NYS VTL, Vehicle and Traffic Law.



Our DMV and Tax Department even have conflicting web pages posted regarding who and how sales/use tax is applied to "vehicles" brought in from out of state. But the web pages don't matter, even if they misinform the public. Only the actual code matters.

And yes, I've corresponded with the DMV on this specific point. They said if the boat wasn't "on the waters" of NY for 90 days? No registration required.

Chuck?
Definitely not a problem. If you are legal in your home state, you are legal in NY state. However, if you are here more than 90? 180? days you will have to re-register the boat here, the same way that you would in almost every state. So make sure you spend a night OUT of NY after 89 days.

OTOH be careful about NJ. NJ passed a new law 2? years ago, requiring the operators of ALL motor vessels to either have a NJ operators certificate, or one from their home state. If your home state doesn't have or offer one...in theory you'd need to get a NJ certificate or stay out of Jersey waters. Some dumbie forgot to include "national" certificates (i.e. online boating courses) in their statute, although I strongly hope the NJ watercops would honor those anyway.
I'm pretty damned sure the NJ law violates federal laws for vessels in transit but have no desire to be the poster boy for that case.


This Statute? Article 48 - Vehicle and Traffic Law - Registration of Vessels



The NJ law was passed about 7 years ago, and was phased in up to june 2009

If you have a CG license, you are exempt, If you take an similar course issued by your home state and present the certificate you're covered. If you take a Power Squadron course, or Coast Guard Auxillary course you're covered...If you take an online course that is similar ( meaning Nasbla approved, or Nasbla modeled) and present a completion certificate you're covered.

I really don't see the onerous nature of taking a boating safety class.
Or operating a properly Registered or documented vessel.

Also, there's a difference between a Statute and a Regulation. If you note the Statute, I've posted above the last line says something like the commissioner may establish " regulations'
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Last edited by Tempest; 07-03-2012 at 07:18 PM.
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