SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!
Status
Not open for further replies.

SailNet. It ain't what it used to be?

8K views 78 replies 44 participants last post by  chall03 
#1 · (Edited)
Amongst the sad farewell threads, the terminology/grammar rants, and the other drama-filled epistles that have popped up recently...I've seen a theme that I find really interesting...it goes something like this:

"SN has 'lost something'. It used to be '10 times better than it is now'. That's why I 'don't post much here anymore'. The 'place is dying'."

Since it's being said by several dudes, I suppose their opinions merit some weight.

But, then you look at the stats for the site over the past few years and you see some pretty steady and respectable growth in reach and traffic:





Does that indicate a "dying" site?

I joined SN in August of 2008 (back when both stats were at their lowest point on the chart). But many think that the year or two up to that point were the "Golden Age" of SN...even though the stats definitely don't show that.

So how do you square these two conflicting views?

I think it's this...when people settle into groups that are in full agreement about how "the sailing world should be" (regardless of what that definition is), and when that group grows to a point that it has the "primary voice" on a forum - it becomes their Golden Age. They think the forum is the best it could possibly be - and at its "highest value" as a resource and place to contribute. Yet, the stats show differently. People outside that group lose interest. The forum actually starts to die.

On the other hand, when there is a wide variety of different groups and opinions (even crazy ones) mixing it up - the stats improve, but the Golden Agers start saying that the place "is dying" and "losing its value"...precisely because it's moving away from what their group defined as "perfect".

I've always been of the opinion that the more people you have talking about sailing (in whatever way they want and/or can) the value of everything around it increases dramatically (the forum, the demand, the sport itself, etc.). The more you try to "control" that conversation in one specific way, the more you kill it.

It seems the stats bear that out.

What do you guys think?
 
See less See more
2
#2 ·
Your theory makes sense Smack. People look at the issues and topics being posted as useless or contrived because it doesn't interest them or conflicts with their sailing philosophy.
In the end though, the idea is to share information and experiences with other people who are interested. If there were things on this forum 8 years ago that you thought were more interesting than topics of the day, so be it. But there is still a large audience that is engaging in what it happening here TODAY.
So I think we should ust keep doing what we're doing and continue to grow and the topics and issues will continue to evolve and some will be great and some will be boring but that's just how it goes.
 
#3 ·
When I started posting here I was a complete neophyte.
The amount of knowledge and experience that this site offered allowed my own knowledge expand exponentially.
I also enjoy the social aspects of the site and generally like the mix of topics.
I occasionally stray into the OT realm, but don't stay too long.
As my sailing experience has grown, however, I'm finding that SN doesn't satisfy my needs as well as it used.
A good example of that, for me, is that recently I posted a Crew Wanted post. A great opportunity for someone to sail in one of the premiere spots in the world. I got a few views and no hits. I even went so far as to PM some members - offer a personal invite. No response.
When I posted a whimsical question about zombies: Whamo!! Hit city!
I can understand how some can get a bit jaded by that kind of thing.
In the summer, when I do all of my sailing (& I sail a lot!) I think I am less active on the site and when I am on, I want to know about sailing.
In the winter, when cabin-fever sets in, then the less-sailing-relevant topics roll out.
 
#4 ·
I don't know!I joined sn a couple of years ago,i suppose to just be linked /close to other sailors,and i have gained some knowlege but as a rule most things even i can figure out,given time,I know very well i've said some things that in hindsight i regret,but i learned early on any apology is met with a barage of insults!!![law of the jungle i suppose]show of weakness as it were,I truely hope this forum adjusts and survives but my temperment just won't allow disrespect to me or directed at another member,I thinks it just a sign of the times,people who don't[can't]express themselves in real life situations use forums as some kind of outlet,thanks for your thread smackmedaddy
 
#7 ·
Good post. I know a few politicians (yeah, I know, don't blast me for it!) and regardless of what the facts are, a common thread from them is, "perception IS reality".

In other words, even if the facts say otherwise, if the public perceives an issue to be a certain way, the politician needs to deal with that. Denying the perception will not endear that politician to their constituents.

I guess that syndrome is what exists here. People perceive one thing, and as you show, reality appears to be something else.
 
#10 ·
I don't know whether it's getting better, worse, or staying the same. But assuming it is worse, I would have no idea how to make it "better". i think it's one of those things that just happens if you post interesting stuff, ask honest questions, try to stick to substantive stuff, and don't worry about whether the board is getting better.
 
#12 ·
New people are important. But just as important is maintaining the "old salts" that are very knowledgeable and can give good advice. I think many of the old salts can get turned off when they post something in which they may be considered experts and get called down on it by others with little real world knowledge on the subject. Same true with the 'google kings' or (as S/V Auspicious puts it) 'Cut and Paste sailors'.

You know, when I first started sailing, I knew I didn't know anything . THen after a few years of it, I thought I knew everything. And now, however many years later, I know I don't know everything!! I generally find I can learn something new every day. I have also learned a lot on here through others experiences. I have also gotten burnt out of here due to personalities.

Now, I just try to remember that this isn't real. It is the internet. It does not mean you cannot make real friends here, but always keep in mind that some people will say and do things on the internet they would never do in person. It took years, but I mostly have learned to tune those people out.

All in all, Sailnet is a good place. We try to keep it pretty civil. We fail sometimes, but that is just life. And remember, Sailnet is a forum which is made of of members. It can only be as good as the members. If you don't like it, make it better or you have no one but yourself to blame.

My opinions.

Brian
 
#25 ·
New people are important. But just as important is maintaining the "old salts" that are very knowledgeable and can give good advice.
The trap is thinking that all posts and the members that make them are created equal. Without those who have credible experience posts on a forum become opinion masquerading as fact.

So here is some opinion:

1. SN should delete all the OT fora. Talk about sailing or go elsewhere.
2. SN should aggressively police the topic fora and ban those who post OT.
3. SN should discourage silly posts that cause thread drift; three strikes and you're out.

If everyone behaved decently we wouldn't need guidelines to become rules. *sigh* Because there are those who get enjoyment from winding others up and being obstructionist rules are beneficial.

When the content value deteriorates all that is left is garbage.

All opinions are not equal. All opinions are not "fact." Cutting and pasting (or worse, making things up) from an armchair is not contributing.

Can *I* have my own thread now? *grin*
 
#13 ·
It's the economy stupid (I mean that in a nice way). There is no hope, even for the dream of sailing. I mean really. The price of everything is ridiculous. If you dream of sailing away to some far off land, you'll get mugged. If you don't get mugged then some government will hound you.

The stories on these boards are old news. There is nothing fresh. How can there be, everything is tied up in the hopelessness of the world. Nobody has any money to dream. Every other boat in my marina has a for sale sign on it.

I use to go down to the marina at the evening time just to sit on my boat and dream. But now, since the price of gas is so high the power boaters stay at the dock and blare their radios.

The morons running this world are destroying everything. Oh, and lets not get started about the bank scandals that keep growing and growing. Even the foundations of society are falling apart and you wonder why no one writes interesting things on a sailing forum.

Something has got to change. And all you who hope in this or that political party to make things better. WAKE UP. YOUR SAILING DREAMS ARE GOING DOWN THE DRAIN!!!
 
#18 ·
It's the economy stupid (I mean that in a nice way). There is no hope, even for the dream of sailing. I mean really. The price of everything is ridiculous. If you dream of sailing away to some far off land, you'll get mugged. If you don't get mugged then some government will hound you.

The stories on these boards are old news. There is nothing fresh. How can there be, everything is tied up in the hopelessness of the world. Nobody has any money to dream. Every other boat in my marina has a for sale sign on it.

I use to go down to the marina at the evening time just to sit on my boat and dream. But now, since the price of gas is so high the power boaters stay at the dock and blare their radios.

The morons running this world are destroying everything. Oh, and lets not get started about the bank scandals that keep growing and growing. Even the foundations of society are falling apart and you wonder why no one writes interesting things on a sailing forum.

Something has got to change. And all you who hope in this or that political party to make things better. WAKE UP. YOUR SAILING DREAMS ARE GOING DOWN THE DRAIN!!!
can i have your STUFF, i will take your boat, just sign it over, your dream is Dead, mine is not, i will keep you posted as to her location
and sea miles as we go. Mobius
 
  • Like
Reactions: Landgull
#14 ·
Don't post much here anymore. For a site to be interesting it needs a cadre of fairly experienced sailors posting on a variety of subjects. Some good back and forth discussion. This group seems to have gone. I only post in the summer as I'm cruising in the winter and am not really concerned with having an internet connection all the time. Being "away" and coming back after six months I have noticed that the site is different. Not something that I can put my finger on but it is different and not as stimulating as before.
 
#15 · (Edited)
It seems like there is a "five year arc" that many members fall into. After 5 years, the shine wears off and they start dropping out.

I guess that can be a good thing (i.e. - they actually go sailing and stop posting like you Vasco). Or it can be a not so good thing (i.e. - they just get bored...or worse, political). Heh-heh.

Good viewpoints.

(PS - My 5 years are almost up.)
 
#16 ·
Another option is all the people who want to sail the world on $1 a day and a boat costing as much find that it might actually take some work and so move on to another endeavor.

Just a guess based on the hordes of people who return to the forum saying it worked out just like they thought it would.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wingNwing
#19 · (Edited)
I would postulate that we've had a steady growth of newbies or boaters with low levels of experience. There has been a steady loss of seasoned voices that provided the most detailed and thorough posts.

I'm amazed by my searches on google that bring up threads/posted as far back as 2002/3/4 on the forums of sailnet. The depth of the responses and the effort to making quality posts from that era is truly impressive.

The only thing I can think of that changed since then is that generation has gone cruising . Or, the face that OT and political forums have driven them off. My feeling is that while OT and Politics forums "pad the numbers"...leave that crap to the anarchy folks and focus on deep, relevant discussions on sailing, cruising, and maintenance.
 
#23 ·
Some of it in my case is "in the eye of the beholder." Yes, the SN I perceive has changed ... but the time period Smacky is looking at coincides exactly with the time period when I changed from living aboard in a marina and going to my desk job every morning, to when we took the docklines off and became fulltime cruisers. Have the threads changed, or am i just seeing them through different eyes?
 
#24 ·
Other popular forums seem to have a lot of sailors asking questions about boats; i.e. whats the best anchor/battery/air conditioner; and answers usually come from the members with the expertise to answer very well. A forum needs more than "back-porch" gossip to be interesting. It seems that a lot of folks don't look at posts that are days and months old- who's paying attention to those? Lets check in more often here and comment on posts where we may have some illuminating input............:)
 
#26 ·
I see the same pattern Smack pointed out occurring on several other unrelated forums. It seems the ones that can self-police and remain courteous, survive, with their ups and downs in traffic. Ones that become sounding boards for a few know-it-alls, wither. It also seems that those forums with "other" rooms, namely politics, often have significant spill-over effect, and ruin the civility of the main rooms. JMHO.

I wonder how many PhD dissertations are being given on internet forum dynamics?
 
#27 ·
I think number of hits/visitors has nothing to do with the quality of posts. If you start getting a bunch of political posts that get big hit counts, that in no way indicates that the "sailing forum" is getting better. Another site had a big post on anchors and it got a lot of posts so it was about good information on sailing. And it did not get censored. Lots of the big hit posts around here are becoming more an more political and non sailing related. Not even boating related politics, but more chest thumping right wing verses left wing talk. So I would not look at stats unless you filter out off topic and politics (hard to do as politics seem to creep into the not political threads). I have been here off and on since around 2005 or so. (finally joined up in 2006)
 
#29 ·
Hm. I guess I'll throw my opinion in-

First of all, the graph doesn't prove anything. Do you know how many sockpuppets, trolls, spambots etc visit this site? How do you separate the legitimate traffic from the garbage?

Setting that aside, I find that Sailnet has evolved in kind of an odd way. When I first got here, there were some seriously knowledgeable sailors here, but a few of them were... rude, arrogant, confrontational people who dominated the conversations. (I am not referring to the Chefs)

It wasn't worth digging through the BS to get to the nugget of good information at the center, so I left for a while.

Now, the worst of those people have moved on, Sailnet is a much friendlier place to be, but I feel that some real knowledge and experience has been lost, and a lot of the discussion has become inane.

We've got people asking about towing kids at high speeds on inflatable tubes with displacement hull sailboats, for example. :rolleyes:

I'd love to have the old knowledge and experience back here, without all the vitriol and nasty attitude that came with it. I'm trying to help fill the gap but face it, no matter how hard I study, and race, and sail, 3.5 years and two sailboats is not enough to be a subject matter expert.

Auspicious Dave has 30 years under his belt. ONE afternoon race with him, taught my crew (and me) a lot. The very light air skills he showed us, litterally saved my bacon at the end of the Solomons Invitational, where the breeze died. I might not have finished before the time limit.

I *hate* the thought of aggressive moderation, but this place just doesn't seem to police itself very well. Maybe it's what we need. I'm still unsure.
 
#30 ·
I am a relative newbie. This site has been a principal source of my preparing for liveaboard. How anyone could look askance at this wonderful community amazes me. I thank the administration and the contributors and I hope this site continues forever, the occasional hothead notwithstanding.
 
#31 ·
In my farewell thread I mentioned I would stay in the background and mainly post through PM and have done so recently with many of you. I continue to read the SN threads in the hope I will continue tom learn things about sailing I feel I need this to be a public post so here it is.

Amongst the sad farewell threads, the terminology/grammar rants, and the other drama-filled epistles that have popped up recently...I've seen a theme that I find really interesting...it goes something like this:

"SN has 'lost something'. It used to be '10 times better than it is now'. That's why I 'don't post much here anymore'. The 'place is dying'."

Since it's being said by several dudes, I suppose their opinions merit some weight.-Smackdaddy
This is true and sums my feelings up
But, then you look at the stats for the site over the past few years and you see some pretty steady and respectable growth in reach and traffic:-Smackdaddy
These graphs mean nothing. Quantity does not mean quality. 1000 lbs of coal is not worth 1 lb of diamonds. I guess you are trying to prove to yourself and others that there is a reason to stay involved and keep the course of Sailnet on its current one without correcting the obvious problems which are causing many with some experience from leaving.

I have gone elsewhere for two reasons. The main one is that the site has changed. There is a lack of respect for each other. People are made fun of when their opinions are different and called out all the time by a number of the posters on here. Who wants to be challenged by some internet denizen who gets their jollies off by ridiculing people who castigate people who post to old posts. The primary reason I joined was to learn from others, meet fellow sailors, and pay it forward. When those disappear I move somewhere else where I can meet the same criteria, its that simple. Look at the comments in the previous thread I started. Along with those who wished me well, there were those who ran true to form with their sarcastic comments, picked apart what I said and meant by "serious sailors"
created their own cacophony of music and head hunting and then took the thread and hijacked it big time. ( The moderator Jeff H even let it run unabated for a few days.). It didn't take long for the "mob internet denizen mentality" to take hold as it has in the recent change I have pointed out that Sailnet has become. Some of the posters on here have been caught saying officious things, baiting others, then going back and changing their threads after the offended individual complains. One individual has the audacity to chide other posters for mentioning that they are offended to the moderators, and has called them out to confront him openly in a post where he pretends to listen. Is this what Sailnet is about now?

The secnond reason for not posting is personal.

You can make all the assumptions about 5 year cycles all you want to justify why many "good" posters have left ( BTW they are elsewhere), they didn't go cruising or go off the planet, they are on other sites, look around I have. Nno more Guiletta, No more Saildog, no more Comradiere ( run off because he dared to take on Tartan) and the SN admin cowered, No more Craigtoo, no more Xort, no more Chuckles, no more T37chef, Mainesail is very reserved now and the list goes on. Ever ask them why they left.I have and it kind of sounds like parts of my story.

Here is the thing on CF anything sailing, the denizens would be censored big time for what is considered appropriate behavior on SN. There is a difference between the friendly joking you see on those sites and the vicious posting seen here.( I am not talking about the off topic forum either.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad
New people are important. But just as important is maintaining the "old salts" that are very knowledgeable and can give good advice.
The trap is thinking that all posts and the members that make them are created equal. Without those who have credible experience posts on a forum become opinion masquerading as fact.

So here is some opinion:

1. SN should delete all the OT fora. Talk about sailing or go elsewhere.
2. SN should aggressively police the topic fora and ban those who post OT.
3. SN should discourage silly posts that cause thread drift; three strikes and you're out.

If everyone behaved decently we wouldn't need guidelines to become rules. *sigh* Because there are those who get enjoyment from winding others up and being obstructionist rules are beneficial.

When the content value deteriorates all that is left is garbage.

All opinions are not equal. All opinions are not "fact." Cutting and pasting (or worse, making things up) from an armchair is not contributing-SVAuspicious
I totally and fully agree with this and would add, get rid of the "Chat Room". This is not a dating site

I *hate* the thought of aggressive moderation, but this place just doesn't seem to police itself very well. Maybe it's what we need. I'm still unsure.-BubbleheadMd
I think the moderators should agreessively moderate using SV Auspicious criteria
1. SN should delete all the OT fora. Talk about sailing or go elsewhere.
2. SN should aggressively police the topic fora and ban those who post OT.
3. SN should discourage silly posts that cause thread drift; three strikes and you're out

Watch carefully now as some take shots at what I have said, watch their tones, see if they can be professional and cordial or see if the replys become personal.

This is just my opinion not a statement of fact for others, but a statement of fact as I see it for me. After all as a very wise moderator mentioned to me...This is only the internet.

Dave
 
#41 · (Edited)
You can make all the assumptions about 5 year cycles all you want to justify why many "good" posters have left ( BTW they are elsewhere), they didn't go cruising or go off the planet, they are on other sites, look around I have. Nno more Guiletta, No more Saildog, no more Comradiere ( run off because he dared to take on Tartan) and the SN admin cowered, No more Craigtoo, no more Xort, no more Chuckles, no more T37chef, Mainesail is very reserved now and the list goes on. Ever ask them why they left.I have and it kind of sounds like parts of my story.

Here is the thing on CF anything sailing, the denizens would be censored big time for what is considered appropriate behavior on SN. There is a difference between the friendly joking you see on those sites and the vicious posting seen here.( I am not talking about the off topic forum either.)
Chef, as I said to you in your thread and in PM, I would love to see you hang around.

And I'm not going to pick your post apart...

But, I do want to point something out...everything you're complaining about above was going on at least as far back as 2007, 2008, etc. Here's proof:

3/2007
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/29818-can-we-agree.html

6/2007
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/off-topic/33668-end-sailnet.html#155975

11/2008
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...ted/48552-new-rule-treatment-new-members.html

That's why I'm not sure so much has really changed in that regard. It's just a different crowd.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top