Canoe Sterns or Double Enders: A dying breed? - Page 2 - SailNet Community
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post #11 of 20 Old 08-01-2012
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Re: Canoe Sterns or Double Enders: A dying breed?

Hans Christian Yachts was supposed to start up again, but I don't know if they ever did.

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post #12 of 20 Old 08-01-2012
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Re: Canoe Sterns or Double Enders: A dying breed?

I have a Tayana 37, but I don't put much stock in the following seas argument. She might do a bit better in following seas, but whatever advantage is insignificant.

It's just looks, that's it. And canoe sterns sure are purdy.
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post #13 of 20 Old 08-01-2012
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Re: Canoe Sterns or Double Enders: A dying breed?

I am now designing two custom double enders. One is 60' LOA for a Seattle client and the other is 45' LOA for a Swedish client. So there is still some demand for double enders. Why? Because it is a natural looking shape that is sweet on the eye. I'm with Neuman. I don't think there is any performance advantage to a double ender unless you are going to sail in reverse. But you could make the argument that a pointy fanny gives you more balanced heeled waterlines and that can result in a better feel to the helm.

But I still love the look of a double ender. And so do some of my clients.
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post #14 of 20 Old 08-01-2012 Thread Starter
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Re: Canoe Sterns or Double Enders: A dying breed?

I am not interested in a double ender because the boat sails or handles "better" than anything else.
As evident in this thread, there certainly is some discourse regarding sail-ability. Better or not, I think that's mostly opinion. What I've never seen questioned though is the boat's ability to keep those on her safe, and furthermore I also have not seen anyone claiming the boat handling badly in any sea condition

Safety and good handling is pretty big. Exceptional + Good on those two criteria certainly does it for me.

What is also big for me when deciding on what I will spend my money, is what I call my PSF - Personal Satisfaction Factor.

A lot goes into this - but just for the sake of this discussion, LOOKS!

Remember that first time you laid eyes on the girl that stole your heart? Remember how you felt?

Well, that's what happens when I look at one of these beauties.

My PSF is certainly revved up by a Tayana, Hans Christian, Pacific Seacraft, etc.


Bob, If I got hooked on sailing a few decades ago (didn't "waste" time and money on other pursuits) I certainly would have loved to be one of your customers...That 45' is amazing!

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post #15 of 20 Old 08-01-2012
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Re: Canoe Sterns or Double Enders: A dying breed?

If you pinch your pennies and the boating market does not pick back up, you could find a Westsail 32 for a reasonable price I bet. Saw one this week somewhere(i think Craiglist) for $30K. I have seen many nicely equipped for around $40K. if you are willing to go smaller you might look at a Liberty 28. Only a few made but reasonable priced if you find one. These are older boats yes, but I think it is better to buy one out right anyway, especially if you know what you want and have time to save for it.


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post #16 of 20 Old 08-02-2012
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Re: Canoe Sterns or Double Enders: A dying breed?

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I am now designing two custom double enders. One is 60' LOA for a Seattle client and the other is 45' LOA for a Swedish client. So there is still some demand for double enders. Why? Because it is a natural looking shape that is sweet on the eye. I'm with Neuman. I don't think there is any performance advantage to a double ender unless you are going to sail in reverse. But you could make the argument that a pointy fanny gives you more balanced heeled waterlines and that can result in a better feel to the helm.

But I still love the look of a double ender. And so do some of my clients.
Wow. Bob Perry agrees with me. I think I'm star struck!
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post #17 of 20 Old 08-02-2012
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Re: Canoe Sterns or Double Enders: A dying breed?

Mind you, I'm no naval architect, but I have read that the reduced bouyancy of the canoe stern is a liability in a following sea. I wonder what the experts here think.
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post #18 of 20 Old 08-02-2012
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Re: Canoe Sterns or Double Enders: A dying breed?

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Any known new designs/plans out there from any designer / yard? (Please tell me there's a Double Ender / Canoe Stern revival in the near future - wishful thinking)
Sorry, it ain't gonna happen, ever... An artist like Bob will continue to find patrons who appreciate such beauties for custom projects, but bringing such boats back into mass production is never gonna happen... PSC may turn out to be the exception, but I hate to say it, I have doubts about their ability to survive producing only the Crealock-style designs over the long haul...

This is where the future lies, I'm afraid... Put one of these side by side with a Valiant at the Annapolis Show, and "The Market" will speak loudly and clearly what it wants...



With so much of the market now being driven by those who have come into big boat sailing and cruising through the charter business, interior volume/accommodation and open cockpits are what most people now expect in a boat. There's good reason why you won't see any Valiants placed in Caribbean charter fleets, after all...

Really a pity, because the sailing characteristics of such boats, in my experience, are wonderful... I've done a couple of lengthy trips on Valiant 42s in the past year, what a wonderful boat... And, one of my alltime favorites, a 38' Alden design named SEAFLOWER, very much inspired by Aage Nielsen, just a fantastic sailing boat...



Another of my favorites is the Tiffany Jane 34, I'll bet this boat sails like a dream...

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post #19 of 20 Old 08-02-2012
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Re: Canoe Sterns or Double Enders: A dying breed?

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Originally Posted by -OvO- View Post
Mind you, I'm no naval architect, but I have read that the reduced bouyancy of the canoe stern is a liability in a following sea. I wonder what the experts here think.
We had 10' following seas on a recent passage, and that was no problem. These guys had a bit more and, likewise, the canoe stern didn't seem to cause them any issues - although they do allude to having got pooped before camera was turned on.


Last edited by sneuman; 08-02-2012 at 10:51 AM.
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post #20 of 20 Old 08-02-2012
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Re: Canoe Sterns or Double Enders: A dying breed?

Jon is right. Again.
Here is the latest PSC project and it has a nice broad, but not overly so, transom. There is just no way to gain th4e swim step advantage with a pointy fanny and as we get older getting on and off the dink can be very important. Double enders will survive as custom projects. I have four new designs going and two of them are double enders.
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