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  #21  
Old 08-20-2012
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Re: Older Boat Insurance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidd View Post
If you/they don't require a survey...How do you determine insurable value...? Sale price...? what if it's a fixer upper or had been purchased as such and has had major upgrades..?
Clarification: Farmers Insurance will not require a survey as long as the value of the boat is below $20,000 regardless of age. So, yes they will insure the 45 year old Tartan 27 without a survey as long as the values agreed to are below $20K, and photos of the boat (a few out of water) look decent. Farmers uses proprietary software and outside resources like NADA guides to determine the value. Of course they will consider all options, overhauls & upgrades (including sail inventory) to determine value. Therefore if you have a pampered old boat, it is important that you give your agent/broker all the pertinent information if a survey is not required. You should have a list of all work and documentation to back it up. This makes life easy for all parties concerned at time of loss, especially if its a total loss.

As concerns the moral hazard in insuring a boat without a survey, well the insurance companies are no dummy. If someone deliberately fails to disclose a serious defect and/or inherent vice in order to benefit from an insurance claim, then they may have very well committed insurance fraud. Also, at time of loss, a marine adjuster will look at your boat (if possible) to determine damage and claim settlement.

Most boats over 25 years old are insured for actual cash value (ACV) as opposed to Agreed Value. Some insureds worry that ACV means Replacement Cost less Depreciation, and after the insurance company is done with depreciating the value of their old boat any settlement will be pittance. Not exactly so. Courts have ruled that ACV is fair market value, and losses should be paid accordingly. This is no different than car insurance where you also get ACV after a total loss. Again, the more you are prepared with documentation, evidence, and records, the more you are likely to get a fair settlement for your boat.
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  #22  
Old 08-20-2012
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Re: Older Boat Insurance

I shopped for insurance for my 84 Bristol last year. I ended up with State Farm who were slightly more expensive than Boat US.
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  #23  
Old 08-20-2012
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Re: Older Boat Insurance

"Courts have ruled that ACV is fair market value, and losses should be paid accordingly. This is no different than car insurance where you also get ACV after a total loss."


And anyone considering ACV should remember the phrase "DANGER WILL ROBINSON!" because each state, and often each policy, will have specifics as to how fair market value is to be defined. Then many insurers will just say "Oh, you had a 1975 Pearson 30, one of them sold in Kentucky last year for ten grand, so that's your value."

Well, no, state laws often require that if fmv is determined by what others have sold for, that the other sales are comparable vehicle, within 30 days not longer, within 50 miles not further, and so on. I've seen honored and reputable (ahem) insurers play BIG games with fair market value.

And Progressive, in their auto policies, will also issue AGREED value, but in the fine print they pay out agreed value OR fmv, whichever they determine to be less. Gotta read the fine print. Which is one reason few if any insurers will actually send you a sample policy to read before they take your dollar committment. It ain't pretty.
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Re: Older Boat Insurance

Just so we can get everyone on the same page here...

Are we talking liability only or full coverage?

I've never had a (power) boat fully covered, only liability. It's never been more than $150/year and has covered the trailer as well.

For those with full coverage - why do you have full coverage on your boat (assuming you aren't financed)?
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Re: Older Boat Insurance

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Originally Posted by pilotman View Post
Just so we can get everyone on the same page here...

Are we talking liability only or full coverage?

I've never had a (power) boat fully covered, only liability. It's never been more than $150/year and has covered the trailer as well.

For those with full coverage - why do you have full coverage on your boat (assuming you aren't financed)?
We are discussing full coverage here. Most insurers do not sell a liability only policy on a sailboat. However, there are a few who do. I am paying $200/yr for full coverage on my O'day 25. The reason people like myself have full coverage is because a small fire on board or wrath of mother nature can add up to a pretty hefty bill, and I don't like borrowing form my mother-in-law
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Re: Older Boat Insurance

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Originally Posted by sailpdx View Post
We are discussing full coverage here. Most insurers do not sell a liability only policy on a sailboat. However, there are a few who do. I am paying $200/yr for full coverage on my O'day 25. The reason people like myself have full coverage is because a small fire on board or wrath of mother nature can add up to a pretty hefty bill, and I don't like borrowing form my mother-in-law
That's not a bad price. I wouldn't mind paying that, but much more and it just wouldn't be worth it to me.

My truck is liability only. If a tree falls on it I'll get scrap value and move on with life. Once my car is paid off I'll seriously contemplate moving that to liability only as well.

I have a level of distrust with insurance companies; about the best you can hope for in the event of a claim is an increase in premiums, the worst is on a blacklist. I've no problems paying for liability coverage, which seems to be reasonable. Other than my home, it's just not worth it IMO.

Same with my power boats of the past. It's a depreciating asset, why pay more money for full coverage?

But that's just me.
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Old 08-20-2012
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Re: Older Boat Insurance

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotman View Post
Just so we can get everyone on the same page here...

Are we talking liability only or full coverage?

I've never had a (power) boat fully covered, only liability. It's never been more than $150/year and has covered the trailer as well.

For those with full coverage - why do you have full coverage on your boat (assuming you aren't financed)?




Because when you spend the time and money to turn this




Including all the stuff you cant see into this




Nothing ever happened in the previous 30 years to any of the many boats

And then after 20 months of work 6 weeks later somebody Rodney Dangerfield's your cabin-top AND there insurance covers the damage no questions asked your kind of glad you had it and they had it
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  #28  
Old 09-05-2012
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Re: Older Boat Insurance

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailpdx View Post
Clarification: Farmers Insurance will not require a survey as long as the value of the boat is below $20,000 regardless of age. So, yes they will insure the 45 year old Tartan 27 without a survey as long as the values agreed to are below $20K, and photos of the boat (a few out of water) look decent. Farmers uses proprietary software and outside resources like NADA guides to determine the value. Of course they will consider all options, overhauls & upgrades (including sail inventory) to determine value. Therefore if you have a pampered old boat, it is important that you give your agent/broker all the pertinent information if a survey is not required. You should have a list of all work and documentation to back it up. This makes life easy for all parties concerned at time of loss, especially if its a total loss.

As concerns the moral hazard in insuring a boat without a survey, well the insurance companies are no dummy. If someone deliberately fails to disclose a serious defect and/or inherent vice in order to benefit from an insurance claim, then they may have very well committed insurance fraud. Also, at time of loss, a marine adjuster will look at your boat (if possible) to determine damage and claim settlement.

Most boats over 25 years old are insured for actual cash value (ACV) as opposed to Agreed Value. Some insureds worry that ACV means Replacement Cost less Depreciation, and after the insurance company is done with depreciating the value of their old boat any settlement will be pittance. Not exactly so. Courts have ruled that ACV is fair market value, and losses should be paid accordingly. This is no different than car insurance where you also get ACV after a total loss. Again, the more you are prepared with documentation, evidence, and records, the more you are likely to get a fair settlement for your boat.
On a whim, I called Farmer's for a quote. So far, everything the OP said is correct but I did encounter one problem that nixed the whole deal:

They do not insure liveaboards.
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  #29  
Old 09-05-2012
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Re: Older Boat Insurance

I've had Hagerty Classic Boat Insurance since I bought Argyle (1975 DE38). They do agreed value and my prices have been in the $700's per year for an agreed value of about $40k. I think I bumped it up to $50K last survey without much of a change in premium. My deductible is about $3k, I think. Might be $5k. I've never had a claim (touch wood) so I can't say how good they are in that area. I do need a survey every four years, which I think is very reasonable. My last survey was abbreviated compared to my pre-purchase survey and cost me around $300.

I'm covered through my current cruising grounds, the Northeast, inshore. If/when I move aboard and sail outside my current cruising grounds, I'll likely drop this coverage and try to find a liability only policy. The cost of coverage in higher risk zones and offshore is prohibitive, imo. If you have enough money to cruise with insurance, you probably have enough money for a new boat in case of a total loss.
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  #30  
Old 09-05-2012
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Re: Older Boat Insurance

Quote:
If you have enough money to cruise with insurance, you probably have enough money for a new boat in case of a total loss.
And that's the kicker for me...I know what I can afford to risk/lose/pay if the boat goes down or gets damaged and am willing to accept that risk...

It's the money grabbing unknowns with lawyers and liabilty claims that need blanket coverage if for some reason I have "dealings" with another human being...

Which is why I'm glad I carry Liabilty....and I sure hope the other guy has it too, cause if he hits me. I'll sue him for all I can get....
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Last edited by Squidd; 09-05-2012 at 11:23 AM.
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