picking up a vacant mooring - Page 2 - SailNet Community
 10Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 37 Old 08-24-2012
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 433
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: picking up a vacant mooring

Unlicensed moorings are impediments to navigation and as such are not owned by anyone but the "owner" if known needs to remove the "trash" at his cost as I have a legal right to anchor in that spot.You cannot Trespass on unowned property.

We have thousand of people "squatting" in MacMansions in Florida as we speak. No trespass because there is no owner. No owner because the bank doesn't want to foreclose and pay property taxes.The squatters cant be removed because there is no trespass. No trespass because no owner.Understand?

You can't own the sea floor in most cases....shellfish beds and some other exceptions do to common law pre-revolution in NE withstanding.

No Licence then its not a mooring its just trash and I can salvage it under some conditions. Then it become my property. Private Moorings are marked. There location and ownership is done under the harbormaster or CG. A soda bottle with a chain on it will not cut it. Now some in NE will scream...They feel entitled...maybe they have gotten away with it for generations...Since the Boat has ALWAYS been there everyone assumes they have a right to.
ParadiseParrot is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 37 Old 08-24-2012
GMC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: CT
Posts: 150
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
Re: picking up a vacant mooring

As time progresses, this issue will continue to rear its head. More and more harbors in New England are becoming completely filled with moorings. Each state considers its underwater property rights differently. In Mass. for example, the bottom that your mooring is set on is owned by the residents of the state of Massachusetts. Management of the state's property rights are delegated to the individual towns. Each administer its harbor differently and commonly violate Mass. law in how they do this. For example, believe or not, it is against the law for towns to charge differential rates for residents vs. non-residents. Many harbors have regulation, in print, which clearly violate this. When there was more room in the harbors, there was less analysis of all this. If small harbors effectively close off their harbors to anchoring (violating fed regs, if they receive fed harbor benefits), they may have to grant with their private moorings with the caveat that mooring holders have to share with people who find the mooring empty. Either that, or the harbors need to be cleared of half their moorings to allow for required anchoring. The interesting thing about the moorings, is that people properly argue that the tackle is theirs, but the radius around the mooring is not, but sort of goes along with the mooring. That is an awful lot that the mooring tackle owner receives for what in NE is usually a fee of less than $100.00. Contrary to one of the posters above, I don't think being on someone's mooring is a trespass. If I find your lawnmower on land not owned by you and use it and return it, it is not trespass. It is something, but not trespass. Probably a form of theft. It is clear that mooring holders have rights to their personal property (the tackle), but have acquired no real property rights (that is to the surface their tackle is on, or the surrounding water). Perhaps naive, but we should all probably encourage mooring holders and harbormasters to encourage a system where private mooring holders could clearly mark that they are off their mooring and someone is welcome to use it. The squeeze is very real and getting worse and if everyone puts their hands on their hips and insists upon their rights, we'll end up with less moorings or more expensive moorings and ham handed attempts by authorities to satisfy citizens.
I have a private mooring and I understand the private property issue, but it is a little different. There are not a lot of analogies I can think of. We're going to start getting people who don't use our tackle, but anchor in radius. What will we have accomplished then? It is getting tight out there.
Greg
Sail New Bedford

Last edited by GMC; 08-24-2012 at 06:12 PM.
GMC is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #13 of 37 Old 08-24-2012
Reward for lost Kraken!
 
hellosailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,449
Thanks: 5
Thanked 132 Times in 129 Posts
Rep Power: 11
   
Re: picking up a vacant mooring

". If so, my question then is, what gives someone the right to claim the water that immediately surrounds his"
Wow, ignorance is bliss.

No one claims THE WATER around their mooring. However, a mooring is sunk into the bottom and bottomlands are regulated very differently from navigable waters. Sometimes the bottomland was assigned by Crown Patent, and that survives in the US today as private ownership. Sometimes the state or municipality owns the bottomland, and has made arrangements to lease or rent our mooring rights.

How can you... (Edit - Infammatory and Unecessary - tdw) You really have no idea that all land is OWNED in the US? Really, you' better do some research on your own state and theneighboring ones, because the laws vary in all of them. But no one is allowed to claim ownership of navigable waters--and that term is federally defined too.

You might want to read the Coast Pilots as well, because if you just drop anchor in a regulated mooring field, the local watercops AND the Coasties will send you tickets to the policeman's ball.

Why can't I park my car on the White House lawn? Or, on the Capital Mall? No, really....

Why do so many people even think they can just go where they please? And bring a boat with them?

Last edited by tdw; 08-25-2012 at 07:32 PM.
hellosailor is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #14 of 37 Old 08-24-2012
Senior Member
 
TakeFive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Swarthmore, PA
Posts: 3,091
Thanks: 6
Thanked 80 Times in 70 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
Re: picking up a vacant mooring

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
...Oh let me guess, you're either sixteen or a communist who's just gotten off the boat? You really have no idea that all land is OWNED in the US?...
Spare me the insults, pal.

It's obvious from my post that I was referring to UNREGULATED mooring balls not having the right to claim the water (or the land under it). My reference to the LP tanks and Chlorox bottles, which you conveniently edited out of your quote, should have given that away.

Then I went on to say, "Of course, if the owner is licensing his rights to the water from a regulating authority with a licensed mooring ball, then that's a different story." This makes it clear that I respect the rights of people who are actually renting licensed balls.

I was just asking a question from my admitted lack of experience. The snarkiness or your response detracts from its usefulness.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Formerly posted as "RhythmDoctor"
1998 Catalina 250WK Take Five (at Anchorage Marina, Essington, on the Delaware River)
1991 15' Trophy (Lake Wallenpaupack)
1985 14' Phantom (Lake Wallenpaupack)
TakeFive is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #15 of 37 Old 08-24-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Milton, DE
Posts: 592
Thanks: 2
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: picking up a vacant mooring

Take Five makes a good point, and I subscribe to it. Personally I avoid other people's moorings because quite frankly I don't like meeting strangers under those circumstances, and to trust my boat with a stranger's mooring integrity?! Never.
Now, I had a 3 point mooring on the Broadkill river that could easily accommodate a 40 footer in a blow that I would gladly extend to anyone that had an emergency. Who knows, might turn out to making a friend.
dick
RobGallagher and HDChopper like this.
Flybyknight is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #16 of 37 Old 08-24-2012
Senior Member
 
TomMaine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 476
Thanks: 6
Thanked 27 Times in 26 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: picking up a vacant mooring

Quote:
Originally Posted by viajero33 View Post
I moved to the US from the UK a few years ago and up until last year sailed in the chesepeake and was able to anchor just about anywhere this year I moved up to the New york area and am sailing southern new england waters.


viajero33
8:43 AM
In the UK one can pick up privet moorings if vacant knowing that you may need to leave at a moments notice should the owner return. naturally the ettiquette is always fiercly debated but i'll keep it simple. If they are not yacht club privat or run by a marina can one pick one up?


viajero33
8:47 AM
I recently found myself in the thimble islands off Con. and was nervous about anchoring due to cable areas on the charts and the area was full of vacant moorings that were numbered there was a coast guard mooring availble which I had read was aviable for the public if free but I ended up taking one that was better protected?
Good question, and one you'll get different answers for.

I agree, with you, and will hook up to vacant moorings if I'm staying on it(not leaving the boat), and prepared to leave at a moments notice. (all caveats of mooring size, inspection, etc., as mentioned)

We do this in Maine waters ocassionally if it makes more sense, for any number of reason, than anchoring.

I own a mooring and have at least once returned to someone using it, that did exactly above. I'm glad they did use it, I see no reason to hold huge harbor areas hostage when we're off, when boats need moorage or anchoring space.

Plus, we have many "destination moorings" in our area of Maine. These are set for the purpose of giving boats an easy overnight in prime anchoring areas, even though there is no shore access involved and there is no regulation.

These moorings take up prime anchoring space and I know of many in my sailing grounds, and use them anytime, with no reservations. They're privately owned but I have the same equal privilege to anchor as well.

You sound like a courteous sailor, welcome to the US. Come to Maine, and please use my mooring if I'm gone.
SVAuspicious and HDChopper like this.
TomMaine is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #17 of 37 Old 08-24-2012
Senior Member
 
TakeFive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Swarthmore, PA
Posts: 3,091
Thanks: 6
Thanked 80 Times in 70 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
Re: picking up a vacant mooring

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
...Sometimes the state or municipality owns the bottomland, and has made arrangements to lease or rent our mooring rights.

How can you...Oh let me guess, you're either sixteen or a communist who's just gotten off the boat?...
Does anyone else see the irony of hellosailor accusing me of failing to recognize the government's right to control the land, and then in the next sentence accusing me of being a communist?

I've been laughing over this all night!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Formerly posted as "RhythmDoctor"
1998 Catalina 250WK Take Five (at Anchorage Marina, Essington, on the Delaware River)
1991 15' Trophy (Lake Wallenpaupack)
1985 14' Phantom (Lake Wallenpaupack)
TakeFive is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #18 of 37 Old 08-24-2012
Reward for lost Kraken!
 
hellosailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,449
Thanks: 5
Thanked 132 Times in 129 Posts
Rep Power: 11
   
Re: picking up a vacant mooring

Five, I'm glad you got a good laugh at it as my comment was intended facetiously, not as an insult. I'm just amazed at the naivete that folks continually show about basic property rights and regulations, on or off the water.

And just to keep things clear, I didn't edit out anything from your post. I quoted one piece--but didn't edit anything you said.

Whether a mooring ball is a "proper" ball or not often has nothing to do with whether it is legally placed. I know well-regulated fields where the balls are plain white, and do not display the state-mandated blue stripe. "Local custom" often overrides laws, and unless you bring in someone federal--that's the way it goes. Right, wrong, legal or illegal.

Anyone can drop a mooring anywhere. Or a marker or a float. The legalities will vary. If you think you're in public waters and have a right to anchor or moor there, by all means, ignore the floats in the area. Or use them. I do know of lobstermen who'll take a shotgun if you've picked up one of their floats, "proper" or not. And of course if the float is just attached to a cinderblock, well, you may be surprised by morning.
hellosailor is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #19 of 37 Old 08-24-2012
HANUMAN
 
RobGallagher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Noank, Connecticut, USA
Posts: 1,503
Thanks: 7
Thanked 28 Times in 27 Posts
Rep Power: 14
 
Re: picking up a vacant mooring

This is such an interesting thread. Why? Because it time stamps the reality of conceptual Libertarian-ism (or Republicans posing as Pseudo-Libertarians) and the need for those damn Democrats to put a regulation on everything.

The rivers and streams run red, white and blue with the run off from Olde New England textile mills then those commie EPA Fukcers came along and destroyed the industry. Now it's all woven and dyed in Spain, no Japan, no Taiwan, no Thailand, no S. Korea, no China, no now the cheap labor and lack of regulation is/will be Afghanistan.

Truth is, everyone wants a free place to park a boat and powerwash the old bottom paint over then end of the dock. Real Men Use Lead! My Grandad used a 350 Chevy Block and some galvanized chain, no permit required. Sprayed DDT on his tomato plants. Fukcing bald eagles and their soft shells. Man UP! Benjamin Franklin was right, should have been the turkey.

Yet moorings don't dig up the sea grass or the shell fish. IF GOD WANTED MAN TO PUSS OUT he would not have created cheap steel mushroom moorings ordered to spec and imported by tried and true USA small business owners by the container full. Damn the torpedos full speed ahead.

I waited ten years for my silly mooring "permit". Now everyone wants a piece? FU Biatches, get your own damn piece of state/federal owned underwater mud patch that I claim is mine because I can!

Sailor Jerry fueled rant over and out.

Edit @ 9AM the following morning: I'm leaving this up as a lesson to myself, now I'm off to find the ibuprophen and make coffee.

Last edited by RobGallagher; 08-25-2012 at 09:16 AM.
RobGallagher is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #20 of 37 Old 08-25-2012
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
picking up a vacant mooring

As a UK citizen and a sailor in the west coast of Scotland can i just point out that the original poster is wrong. the seabed is owned by the Crown and managed by the crown estates. Moorings have to have permission granted either to individuals or clubs etc. They are most certainly not available to be used by anyone who wants to. Most popular sailing areas have visitors moorings available and more are being laid every year. So its not a free for all!
ostara's skipper is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
picking up a mooring single handed jasonr575 Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 16 07-17-2013 09:23 AM
Picking up a Mooring davidpm Seamanship & Navigation 7 06-26-2011 10:40 PM
Picking Up a Mooring in Naptown otighearnaigh Chesapeake Bay 16 09-05-2007 10:30 PM
Help picking a boat Morgan3820 Boat Review and Purchase Forum 5 05-06-2007 08:54 PM
Picking a surveyer gknopp Boat Review and Purchase Forum 13 10-13-2003 10:25 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome