Is sleeping OK? - Page 17 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree138Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #161  
Old 09-25-2012
jackdale's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 8,734
Thanks: 25
Thanked 30 Times in 27 Posts
Rep Power: 6
jackdale will become famous soon enough
Re: Is sleeping OK?

I managed to scatter the story all over SN.

Here are some links to the story - I had to conduct mid ocean medevac on the trip.

Medical Evacuation on Maui Return

Big Freakin' Sails

Big Freakin' Sails
__________________
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #162  
Old 09-25-2012
jameswilson29's Avatar
Senior Smart Aleck
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 1,995
Thanks: 23
Thanked 62 Times in 57 Posts
Rep Power: 5
jameswilson29 is on a distinguished road
Re: Is sleeping OK?

What was the medical emergency?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #163  
Old 09-25-2012
jackdale's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 8,734
Thanks: 25
Thanked 30 Times in 27 Posts
Rep Power: 6
jackdale will become famous soon enough
Re: Is sleeping OK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
What was the medical emergency?
Th trip was on my crew member's bucket list. He had some prostate issues, but his urologist cleared him for trip and provided him with some catheters. The early motion sickness resulted in some dehydration which made things worse and he need to use the catheters. We hove-to to stabilize the boat. The situation got worse so, at his request, I contacted CG Honolulu via sat phone. After a consult with their Flight Surgeon a rendezvous was arranged with a 335 meter container ship bound for Los Angeles. We met 39 10N 150 W and made the transfer.
__________________
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)

Last edited by jackdale; 09-25-2012 at 03:59 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #164  
Old 09-25-2012
Cruisingdad's Avatar
Best Looking MALE Mod
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Mobile Liveaboards
Posts: 9,894
Thanks: 3
Thanked 97 Times in 52 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough
Re: Is sleeping OK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Sorry, but I must strenuously disagree...

What rules should yachtsmen be excused from, simply because they choose to partake in a purely RECREATIONAL endeavor on the world's oceans, CHOOSING to sail short or singlehanded? Should private pilots likewise have similar courtesies granted to them, because their tiny Pipers or Cessnas are more subject to turbulence, thus making the delicate constitutions of their pilots more susceptible to airsickness? (grin)

I can only imagine the sort of scorn with which most professional mariners would greet such a plea for special status... Especially, in an age where they are being expected to pluck distressed yachties from their plastic toys with ever-increasing frequency... Not to mention, where some are demanding (as was seen here in the Loss of TRIUMPH thread) that merchant vessels participating in the AMVER program need to get their act together, and undergo far more rigorous training in order to properly do so...

Their bemusement would likely pale in comparison, however, to that of many of my all-time voyaging heroes - people like the Smeetons, Hiscocks, or Roths, who epitomized self-sufficiency and the acceptance of personal responsibility for their choices, embraced the risks of putting to sea on a small boat, and indeed would have been embarrassed to have such special consideration requested on their behalf...
I understnad your comments, Jon, however, I still believe that is wrong.

You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Sorry, but I must strenuously disagree...

What rules should yachtsmen be excused from, simply because they choose to partake in a purely RECREATIONAL endeavor on the world's oceans, CHOOSING to sail short or singlehanded?
First of all, this isn't recreational for me or the majority of the sailors that go to sea. You can call it recreation if you want for how you do it, maybe. THis is my life and this is how I live. THis vessel is my home, and the sea my yard. SHould I have lived in a home on land, would your interpretation be different? I live on the sea, full time, with my family. It is no more recreational for me or the many other F/T cruisers and LA's than a house is to land dwellers. Please save the word "recreational" for the Sea Ray folks who come down on the weekends or those who don't take this seriously. I certainly do and so do the singlehanders/couples of the world that cruise. I also take safety very seriously.

Second, unless conscription has come back into the world and they forgot to tell me, every man and child on the sea is there by choice. Some get paid for it. Others dont. None of us has any more right to be at sea than the other. I sure don't believe that a commercial vessel has any more right, or a large company just because they are trying to make money off of it or it is the cheapest way for a large company to move goods. SO to be clear, everyone out there is CHOOSING to do this... be they a company, a private vessel's family, or a professional mariner on a super tanker.

As far as those who CHOOSE to do it alone, they are doing the best they can with what they have and are really a risk to no one but themselves or others who singlehand and do not stand a f/t watch. So, do we deny them access to the oceans beacuse they have no friends, or don't have have the money to hire a captain and crew to go with them, or wish solitude?? If they CHOOSE not to keep a watch, in a reasonable fashion, then they know the risks they impose on themselves. However, the ONLY way I see two vessels, within reason, hitting each other is if they both were shirking their watch duties. How else would you explain it, Jon? In such a case, they must both live with the consequences. However, I fault neither where they are both doing the best to their vessels abilities at that time.

THird, do I believe that commercial vessels should live up to the fullest extent of the rules and obey them, even where I believe that some "yachties" (using your word), do not? Yes. Yes, I do. As a commercial vessel, your ability to inflict significant damage to property, damage to the environment, and death is exponentially greater than that of a 18000 lb sailboat under sail or motor. You are being paid and the company has a responsibility to its passengers, vendors (cargo), and the environment as a whole which we as "yachties" simply cannot relate to. Examples? The Concordia? Exxon Valdez? The Titanic? THe sea is filled with ships whose crews/captains have done something stupid and caused loss of life, property, and the environment. Worst case scenario, I stike a cargo vessel, I die and his paint is scratched. My 45 gallons of diesel into the sea would be a joke. A cargo vessel striking another cargo vessel or tanker... that is a large loss of life, property, and a massive environmental disaster. So... do I believe they should live to a much higher standard? Yeah, I do. Sorry. Apparently, since you can't just hop on a oil tanker and sail her across the sea without a lot of licensing (yet you can drive a 2 million dollar sea ray and never even been on the water before), there must be some truth to my reasoning.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Should private pilots likewise have similar courtesies granted to them, because their tiny Pipers or Cessnas are more subject to turbulence, thus making the delicate constitutions of their pilots more susceptible to airsickness? (grin)
I have no idea. I am not a pilot. I don't understand your analogy at all and how that compares to singlehanders on sailboats and commercial vessels?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I can only imagine the sort of scorn with which most professional mariners would greet such a plea for special status... Especially, in an age where they are being expected to pluck distressed yachties from their plastic toys with ever-increasing frequency...
Why would they scorn us? Their ability to damage or kill others is exponentially higher than ours... so much so it is hardly worth comparring. I consider myself a professional in what I do. I would think you do to. This is not about special status, this is about doing what is at their ability to do with what their vessel has on board. We are not commercial vessels. We are very small, private yachts and of zero risk to them. And again you make this anaology to a toy. This is my home. It is not a toy or a child's play thing.

As far as plucking us out of the sea, do you honestly believe that has anything to do with the number of people keeping watch on the boat? Come on. THe reason they respond to more distress calls is because of the advent of the EPIRB or similar devices that can actually save lives via reporting emergencies. Do they actually scorn a fellow sailor who will die without their help? DO they really get mad because they had to divert their course to save a life(s)? I sure wouldn't. I would be happy to help. THe role being reversed, and a merchant ship was going down Jon, would you divert to help them? Would you be happy to do it? I would. That is a part of the common bond we all have with the sea and helping out another human being is part of just being human. If they have a problem with helping save someone's life, assuming it would not endanger their own, then their problems go a lot deeper than how many people are on watch on the private vessel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Their bemusement would likely pale in comparison, however, to that of many of my all-time voyaging heroes - people like the Smeetons, Hiscocks, or Roths, who epitomized self-sufficiency and the acceptance of personal responsibility for their choices, embraced the risks of putting to sea on a small boat, and indeed would have been embarrassed to have such special consideration requested on their behalf...
If they went to sea under the current COLREGs, they were likely breaking the law... especially as a couple or singlehanders. That is my issue. If you go out on your boat Jon by yourself (I assume you have been out of the slip by yourself, right?), and you have to take a crap, or get a drink, take a leak, or fix lunch - then when you leave that helm you are technically in voilation of the COLREGS. You are NOT keeping a proper watch. THe large commercial vessel can call up someone to take the helm and likely has others on the bridge. They should. They better! The typical cruiser does not have that type of crew. So your COLREGS have now put them into a point of violation when they are doing the best they can with what they have. Or would we stop all crusiers and cruising now too because of a set of laws that were really written with the commercial vessel (and crew) in mind?

I most certainly accept personal responsibility as do most of the singlehanders. Like I said, the only way that two vessels collide is if both vessels were failing to keep a proper watch. In fact, I believe you are very wrong on another point to... I suspect most of the famous singlehanded sailors of old would be embarrased to think that a sailors's right to go to sea by himself in his boat was taken away If I were them, I would probably say, "Thank God I got to do it when I did." I bet the sailors of old would have never thought a day would come when a man's right to sail the oceans singlehanded was being compromised because others feel it is unsafe... the same others that are probably, at one time or another, breaking the exact same law.

Brian
__________________
Sailnet Adminstrator & Moderator
Catalina 400 Technical Editor

2004 Catalina 400, Sea Mist IV (our boat, F/T Mobile Live Aboards in S FL and Keys primarily)
1987 Tayana Vancouver 42, Credendo Vides, (Mom and Pops boat, F/T Mobile Live Aboards in Puget Sound)

My Website:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow My Blog at:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow me on Facebook:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #165  
Old 09-25-2012
davidpm's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Madison
Posts: 3,620
Thanks: 159
Thanked 35 Times in 28 Posts
Rep Power: 7
davidpm is on a distinguished road
Re: Is sleeping OK?

I have solved the whole problem.
As you can see from my avatar I have highly trained service dog.
When I sleep she stands watch and is trained to alert me with the following signals.
One bark for possible ships on a collision course.
Two barks for land
Three barks for wind picking up so canvas needs to be adjusted.
Four barks for pirates or coastguard.

So far this has worked well for several thousand sea miles.
It is also legal as colregs do not specify that the watch keeper has to be human.

As you can see she can steer as necessary and to get a better view she monitors the fore and sided decks.
Attached Thumbnails
Is sleeping OK?-emma-fordeck.jpg   Is sleeping OK?-emma-wake.jpg   Is sleeping OK?-emma-wheel.jpg   Is sleeping OK?-p9130850.jpg  

Last edited by davidpm; 09-25-2012 at 05:20 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #166  
Old 09-25-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Corpus Christi, Tx
Posts: 868
Thanks: 8
Thanked 14 Times in 13 Posts
Rep Power: 9
ccriders is on a distinguished road
Re: Is sleeping OK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
I have solved the whole problem.
As you can see from my avatar I have highly trained service dog.
When I sleep she stands watch and is trained to alert me with the following signals.
One bark for possible ships on a collision course.
Two barks for land
Three barks for wind picking up so canvas needs to be adjusted.
Four barks for pirates or coastguard.

So far this has worked well for several thousand sea miles.
It is also legal as colregs do not specify that the watch keeper has to be human.

As you can see she can steer as necessary and to get a better view she monitors the fore and sided decks.
Jackdale:
I hope this gets a chuckle from you.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #167  
Old 09-25-2012
MedSailor's Avatar
Closet Powerboater
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Anacortes PNW
Posts: 2,316
Thanks: 50
Thanked 47 Times in 39 Posts
Rep Power: 7
MedSailor is on a distinguished road
Re: Is sleeping OK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
Four barks for pirates or coastguard.
I LOVE that these two have the same signal.

MedSailor
davidpm likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


I have a sauna on my boat, therefore I win.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #168  
Old 09-25-2012
jackdale's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 8,734
Thanks: 25
Thanked 30 Times in 27 Posts
Rep Power: 6
jackdale will become famous soon enough
Re: Is sleeping OK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccriders View Post
Jackdale:
I hope this gets a chuckle from you.
Only if he sails a barque or a barquentine.

If he sails a cat rig, no way.
ccriders likes this.
__________________
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #169  
Old 09-25-2012
MedSailor's Avatar
Closet Powerboater
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Anacortes PNW
Posts: 2,316
Thanks: 50
Thanked 47 Times in 39 Posts
Rep Power: 7
MedSailor is on a distinguished road
Re: Is sleeping OK?

I've been enjoying this discourse so far. I don't have much to add because I'm generally with Minnie and think this problem is largely unsolvable, but it is still fun to discuss!

My point that I'd like to bring up is that the US Coast Guard issues permits for races (in the USA). Aren't they being somewhat complicit in "allowing" violations of the COLREGS by permitting a race like the Singlehanded Transpac where they know that keeping a watch will not be possible?

It would be unreasonable to believe that the Coast Guard doesn't know that singlehanders will sleep while underway and yet they choose to permit singlehanded only races along with the crewed ones. Interesting no?


MedSailor

P.S. Jackdale, thanks for the link to the case involving the collision between the sailboat and freighter. I don't think I've ever read a judges opinion on a case before and it was VERY informative to read his rational for his decisions in attributing blame. It was also interesting to hear his deliberations on the issue of requiring the use of RADAR if fitted. I'd heard many people say that you are "required" to use RADAR if you have it aboard but I'd never seen anything real on the issue until now.
Capt.aaron likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


I have a sauna on my boat, therefore I win.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #170  
Old 09-25-2012
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 14
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
dugout is on a distinguished road
Re: Is sleeping OK?

The USCG enjoys ambiguity and the flexibility it offers.
Admiralty law spends most of the time in the grey, far from the extremes of black and white.
To the point let’s take apart rule 5:

Lookout
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

Define “proper”??? Is it conditional? Why is the word used here?

Define “appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions” Is this conditional? What is the purpose of the additional verbiage?

For those who wish to stand on a rule, end all, one might choose one with more stability. Rule 5 is certainly written “conditionally”. I’m sure the standards are different between the southern approach to Ambrose and 300 miles east of Bermuda, right?
ccriders and Capt.aaron like this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sleeping arrangements for little ones? semirg Cruising and Sailing with Children 5 10-07-2011 06:24 AM
Sleeping at sea nasomi Learning to Sail 90 09-19-2010 12:22 AM
More comfortable sleeping? jmcgee Gear & Maintenance 14 09-28-2008 07:37 AM
Sleeping in comfort? wildcard General Discussion (sailing related) 17 06-14-2007 11:36 AM
Sleeping at the wheel Giulietta General Discussion (sailing related) 12 12-02-2006 10:35 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:42 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012