Is sleeping OK? - Page 18 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree138Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #171  
Old 09-25-2012
Cruisingdad's Avatar
Best Looking MALE Mod
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Mobile Liveaboards
Posts: 9,894
Thanks: 3
Thanked 97 Times in 52 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough
Re: Is sleeping OK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
I've been enjoying this discourse so far. I don't have much to add because I'm generally with Minnie and think this problem is largely unsolvable, but it is still fun to discuss!

My point that I'd like to bring up is that the US Coast Guard issues permits for races (in the USA). Aren't they being somewhat complicit in "allowing" violations of the COLREGS by permitting a race like the Singlehanded Transpac where they know that keeping a watch will not be possible?

It would be unreasonable to believe that the Coast Guard doesn't know that singlehanders will sleep while underway and yet they choose to permit singlehanded only races along with the crewed ones. Interesting no?


MedSailor

P.S. Jackdale, thanks for the link to the case involving the collision between the sailboat and freighter. I don't think I've ever read a judges opinion on a case before and it was VERY informative to read his rational for his decisions in attributing blame. It was also interesting to hear his deliberations on the issue of requiring the use of RADAR if fitted. I'd heard many people say that you are "required" to use RADAR if you have it aboard but I'd never seen anything real on the issue until now.
I would like to add something:

I think JackDale, Jon, Aaron, ferret, minne, MS CC, etc... have made great contributions here. You want to know what is nice? THat we, all as experienced sailors, can sit down and have a fun discussion about this. We will not agree, of course. So what? I hate it when another very experienced sailor (like Ferret) puts another on ignore (like Jackdale) because we cannot reason through it.

Hey, we are all on the same side here. We just have dissagreements. Hopefully each of us can understand the others viewpoint (not necessarly agree with it) and sit down for a beer one day together. Lets not put a dissagreement between us.

Sincerely,

Brian

PS I will make everyone here a deal: I know of a boat off of Key West that is abandoned about every two weeks. There is a line hanging off the boat. At the end of the line is a six pack of beer. As long as no one tells a particular poster here, every two weeks we can drink beer that has been abandoned. I think that is fair enough for all of us to maintain civility (at least until he finds out).
__________________
Sailnet Adminstrator & Moderator
Catalina 400 Technical Editor

2004 Catalina 400, Sea Mist IV (our boat, F/T Mobile Live Aboards in S FL and Keys primarily)
1987 Tayana Vancouver 42, Credendo Vides, (Mom and Pops boat, F/T Mobile Live Aboards in Puget Sound)

My Website:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow My Blog at:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow me on Facebook:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #172  
Old 09-25-2012
davidpm's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Madison
Posts: 3,644
Thanks: 160
Thanked 36 Times in 29 Posts
Rep Power: 7
davidpm is on a distinguished road
Re: Is sleeping OK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
I LOVE that these two have the same signal.

MedSailor
I'm glad you noticed. That was on purpose.
Depending on what country you are sailing near it's all the same.
MedSailor likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #173  
Old 09-26-2012
Capt. Gary Randall's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mongolia
Posts: 379
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Capt. Gary Randall is on a distinguished road
Re: Is sleeping OK?

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/attach...1&d=1348633852


NUC
Attached Thumbnails
Is sleeping OK?-429337_10151157901118567_367681801_nboatgitar.jpg  
travlineasy likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
[SIGPIC] The only difference between an ordeal and a adventure is your attitude!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #174  
Old 09-26-2012
flandria's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Beautiful Georgian Bay, Canada
Posts: 125
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 2
flandria is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Skype™ to flandria
Re: Is sleeping OK?

I have mused about that question myself, never having done anything singlehanded for any length of time. Yes, you can rely on various audio-warnings, but I am not the only one that has ever been so exhausted to sleep through anything. This is why I consider those singlehanded round-the-world races that go storming down the southern lattitudes rather irresponsible... but, hey, I am not obliged to join them.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #175  
Old 09-26-2012
Brewgyver's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal
Posts: 336
Thanks: 3
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Brewgyver is on a distinguished road
Re: Is sleeping OK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
I managed to scatter the story all over SN.
(snip)
Thanks Jack!
__________________
s/v My Sweet Girl!
Catalina 30 (Mark I)
Atomic 4
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #176  
Old 09-26-2012
Brewgyver's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: So Cal
Posts: 336
Thanks: 3
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Brewgyver is on a distinguished road
Re: Is sleeping OK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
(snippage)
P.S. Jackdale, thanks for the link to the case involving the collision between the sailboat and freighter. I don't think I've ever read a judges opinion on a case before and it was VERY informative to read his rational for his decisions in attributing blame. It was also interesting to hear his deliberations on the issue of requiring the use of RADAR if fitted. I'd heard many people say that you are "required" to use RADAR if you have it aboard but I'd never seen anything real on the issue until now.
What's REALLY interesting is that the Rules DO seem to REQUIRE it's use:
Quote:
Rule 7 - Risk of Collision

(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.

(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.
USCG Navigation Rules Online

By any reasonable definition, "Operational" meand in normal working order, not whether or not the equipment is turned on. That would be "Operating", not "Operational."

Cpt. Aaron, I would assume the boats you work on have radar, is it routinely operating under way, or only at night or weather dependent? Just curious.
__________________
s/v My Sweet Girl!
Catalina 30 (Mark I)
Atomic 4

Last edited by Brewgyver; 09-26-2012 at 05:02 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #177  
Old 09-26-2012
MedSailor's Avatar
Closet Powerboater
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Anacortes PNW
Posts: 2,376
Thanks: 57
Thanked 49 Times in 41 Posts
Rep Power: 7
MedSailor is on a distinguished road
Re: Is sleeping OK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewgyver View Post
What's REALLY interesting is that the Rules DO seem to REQUIRE it's use:

USCG Navigation Rules Online

By any reasonable definition, "Operational" meand in normal working order, not whether or not the equipment is turned on. That would be "Operating", not "Operational."
What you've cited is THE LAW, the problem is that laws are open to interpretation, enter the role of the judge and case law. This is where Lawyers get the big bucks, because even though THE LAW is usually availble for us to read, the case law interpretations of it are what actually matter. Here is what the judge wrote about the fact that the container ship EXPRESS did not have her radar in use when it ran down the sailboat CAMERA:

Skip to the end for the good bits (emphasis added by me):
From the link here posed by Jackdale (it's a long read but VERY informative)
Link to case:FindACase™ | GRANHOLM v. THE VESSEL TFL EXPRESS

Medsailor

Plaintiff also contends that the EXPRESS should be held in fault for failure to post the lookout on the bow rather than on the wings of the bridge; and for failure to have the radar in full operation at all times. I am not persuaded by either of these contentions.

Rule 5 requires the maintenance of "a proper lookout"; his positioning on the vessel is not specifically addressed. There is authority in the earlier cases for the proposition that a lookout should be posted in the bow, "especially if the visibility is poor," United States v. The Adrastus, 190 F.2d 883, 886 (2d Cir. 1951). But the rule is not hard and fast.The Second Circuit has approved the posting of a lookout in the wheel house, at least in respect of tugs, Moran Towing & Transportation Co. Inc. v. The City of New York, 620 F.2d 356, 357 n.1 (1980), having accepted testimony "that the lookout's station in the wheel house provided the best view and allowed the lookout to communicate easily with the mate." In the case at bar, defendants' expert witness Warren Harday, who has sailed as master on container ships such as the EXPRESS, testified that in clear visibility it is the practice on such vessels to post the lookout on the wings of the bridge rather than on the bow. The bow is obscured from the bridge by containers stowed on deck. In consequence the watch officer on the bridge cannot observe the lookout on the bow to ensure his attentiveness, or that he has not been injured by sudden swells. A lookout stationed on the bridge wing may be more closely supervised. He is also able to report immediately to the watch officer. Captain Jacobsen gave comparable testimony. Plaintiff offered no contrary expert evidence. While I recognize that in some circumstances evidence of a practice is nothing more than evidence of a negligent practice, I conclude in this case that a container ship with her bridge located aft and the bow obscured by containers, proceeding in uncongested waters on a clear night, does not violate Rule 5 by posting a lookout on the bridge wings rather than on the bow.

I also reject plaintiff's contention that the EXPRESS must be condemned for failing to have her radar switched on during the evening in question.To reiterate: the EXPRESS was sailing in the open ocean on a clear night. Plaintiff cites no case requiring use of radar in such circumstances. My own research discloses none. The Fourth Circuit reached a contrary conclusion in British Transport Commission v. United States, supra. The district judge in that case rejected a contention that failure to use radar on a clear night constituted fault because it would have revealed the other vessel's existence.The district judge wrote:

"But [the mate] was not looking for anything to starboard; he had no reason to go to the radar to search in any direction. His failure to see the Duke [the other vessel] was not negligence, for it was not the result of neglect of an obligation. No obscurity obligated him to use his radar, and there was nothing else to put him on notice of any need or it."

The Fourth Circuit quoted this language with approval. 230 F.2d at 142.

In Afran Transport Co. v. The Bergechief, 274 F.2d 469, 474 (2d Cir. 1960), Judge Medina stated generally: "If a vessel carries properly functioning radar equipment and she is in or approaching an area of known poor visibility, there is an affirmative duty to use the radar." British Transport Commission v. United States is one of the cases cited for that proposition in Afran Transport. It seems fair to assume that the Second Circuit would not condemn a vessel for failing to use her radar in uncongested waters and clear visibility. Certainly the Second Circuit has never done so. Plaintiff relies upon Rule 7(b), which specifies that "[p]roper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational," *fn6" but this rule, enacted as part of a revision of the rules preventing collisions in 1977, does not in my view change the result. Propriety does not require use of the radar in circumstances such as these. Indeed, it may be imprudent to run the radar at all times. I may judicially notice, Fed. Rule of Evid. 201(b), that the service lives of radar sets (like all appliances) are finite.Indiscriminate use may cause the radar to fail when it is most needed.

In short, I conclude that absent circumstances indicating that radar may give information useful for safe navigation and not otherwise available, there is no obligation to keep the radar fully activated. Keeping the radar on standby while underway is, of course, a prudent procedure.

While I reject plaintiff's claims that the EXPRESS should be held in fault for positioning of the lookout and failure to use radar, the EXPRESS must nonetheless be condemned for failure to maintain a proper and attentive lookout.

Fault on the Part of the CAMERA
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


I have a sauna on my boat, therefore I win.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #178  
Old 09-26-2012
travlineasy's Avatar
Morgan 33 O.I. Perryville
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,233
Thanks: 3
Thanked 52 Times in 43 Posts
Rep Power: 4
travlineasy will become famous soon enough
Re: Is sleeping OK?

I read the entire transcript and figured the judge was either paid off, or had his head stuck clearly up his a$$. I spent a couple years working in a courtroom as a reporter for a local radio station and can assure you that not all judges make rulings in accordance with the written law(s).

Good Luck,

Gary
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #179  
Old 09-26-2012
FSMike's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 572
Thanks: 0
Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts
Rep Power: 5
FSMike is on a distinguished road
Re: Is sleeping OK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeDiver View Post
Is it okay to sleep while I'm armed?
It depends upon what kind of anchor you're sleeping with.
__________________
Sail Fast Live Slow
40' Norman Cross trimaran
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #180  
Old 09-27-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,397
Thanks: 0
Thanked 113 Times in 101 Posts
Rep Power: 4
JonEisberg will become famous soon enough
Re: Is sleeping OK?

Regarding the GRANHOLM case that Jack linked to, the the strategy some here prefer to employ, I would disagree with this assessment:

Quote:

In the case at bar, Granholm's decision to go below during the nighttime was negligent.His own testimony reflects an awareness that this was so. I have previously quoted the relevant portion; Granholm said that "as a rule I made it a habit to take my resting periods during daytime and when the conditions were such that I could afford having some rest." The reasons are obvious. At night a sailboat, even displaying the proper lights, is not nearly as visible as she is in the daytime, when underway under sail. Granholm was sailing near a recognized transatlantic route for large vessels. He should have adhered to his own practice and rested only during the daytime. It may seem unfeeling to condemn single handed transatlantic sailors for sleeping at night. But they pursue this hazardous avocation voluntarily, and are not exempt from the requirements of prudent seamanship.
Different approaches work for different individuals, of course... But the routine of stopping or heaving-to during daylight hours to rest (setting aside a circumstance involving total exhaustion or sickness, of course) really seems counterproductive, to me... Daylight is obviously the safest time to be making miles. Not only might it offer the best chance of seeing and being seen by other traffic, or avoiding debris - but it is also when one is best attuned with the boat, and is most likely to notice the sort of little things going on with the rig, or on deck, that might lead to a problem or gear failure on down the road...

In my experience, the effort sometimes required to stay awake through an entire night becomes far more exhausting, than breaking the night up with a routine of catnaps (which are generally more productive physiologically during the nighttime, anyway)... I think you're far better off continuing to make miles, minimizing the potential for exposure to weather by completing the passage as quickly as possible... One simply has to accept the risk involved in sailing offshore at night, and the realization that something like a collision with debris might be just as likely whether one is standing watch in the cockpit, or snatching some sleep below...

Also, re visibilty, it's not necessarily a given that daylight is always superior... Depending upon the conditions, nighttime can often offer equal or better ability to spot other vessels at a distance... Cruise ships in particular, or even large commercial fishing vessels, the loom of their deck lights can often be first detected long before they appear over the horizon, or would become visible in daylight...
jameswilson29 likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sleeping arrangements for little ones? semirg Cruising and Sailing with Children 5 10-07-2011 06:24 AM
Sleeping at sea nasomi Learning to Sail 90 09-19-2010 12:22 AM
More comfortable sleeping? jmcgee Gear & Maintenance 14 09-28-2008 07:37 AM
Sleeping in comfort? wildcard General Discussion (sailing related) 17 06-14-2007 11:36 AM
Sleeping at the wheel Giulietta General Discussion (sailing related) 12 12-02-2006 10:35 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:19 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.