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  #191  
Old 09-27-2012
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Re: Is sleeping OK?

Ye verily brother Eisberg.

Something that springs to mind is that in all my old cruising books the galley was nearly always situated to port, that way one could be above the stove when cooking and on a starboard tack. So even when cooking dinner those irresponsible old salts were failing to comply with their watchkeeping responsibilities.

Heaven help us if somehow or other the single hander is to be consigned to history by a bunch of , as JE says, virtually unenforceable rules. Harsh reality is that it is pretty much assured that any harm that will come to anyone out on the high seas as a result of a single hander not keeping an effective watch will be to the single hander themselves.
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  #192  
Old 09-27-2012
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Re: Is sleeping OK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Fair enough, looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree...



Well, you may be the exception to the general rule, but in my observation most people - with the possible exception of delivery crews - who are making offshore passages on private yachts, are primarily doing so for PLEASURE, and mostly at times and places of their own choosing, and in season favorable and most comfortable for doing so... I've cruised New England in the wintertime, for example, and never saw another sail between NJ and Maine, and return. However, there was still no shortage of professional mariners and commercial fishermen plying those waters at that time of the year. To suggest that yachtsmen and cruisers who crowd those same waters only in the summertime be placed in the same category as regards to their motivation for being out there, or that both groups are exercising a comparable form of "choice", seems a bit of a stretch, to me...



I don't disagree at all, especially re the portion I bolded... That's why I can't agree with the argument that yachtsmen should be entitled to some form of special status, or exemption from COLREGS, and believe that the same rules should apply to all...



Again, I think it's more than just a bit of hyperbole to suggest anyone is being "denied access to the oceans", here... And if you choose to sail the oceans alone or shorthanded, accept your limitations, take responsibility for the risk you - and you alone - have chosen to undertake...



Hmmm, I haven't seen anyone arguing here that they should not...



Well, since you are asking - yes, I actually have...

My girlfriend often joins me when she can after I've reached an intended destination or cruising ground, but otherwise all of the voyaging I've done on my own boat has been singlehanded... Thus far, my little tub has somehow found her way as far south and west as here...



...and as far north and east as here...



Tack on nearly 500 deliveries under both power and sail since 1976, probably 2/3 of them solo, and I reckon the number of singlehanded miles I've put behind me would at least be right up there with those of anyone else posting to this thread... So, yes - I have managed to leave a dock or two by myself, and believe I have a reasonably fair idea what singlehanded sailing involves...

I'm mystified that some in this thread appear to think I'm somehow arguing against the notion of singlehanded voyaging... Nothing could be further from the truth, probably my fault for not expressing myself more clearly... To your points, I'm simply arguing that I don't believe a separate set of COLREGS rules should apply to those who CHOOSE to go to sea shorthanded...



We'll never know, of course, but I would reassert my opinion that sailors such as Moitessier or Mike Plant would laugh at such a special pleading made on their behalf... Talking about "a sailors's right to go to sea by himself in his boat ... (being) taken away" seems nothing short of a hysterical overreaction to a discussion of COLREGS in regards to singlehanders...

There are very few things in today's world EASIER for an individual to do, than to take off on a small boat upon an ocean, and set sail for wherever he might desire... Whenever I depart Barnegat or Manasquan Inlet, there is no checkpoint I must pass through, no person or authority requesting I produce credentials or declare my destination, or offer proof of my plan to comply with COLREGS... The procedure is far simpler and less onerous, even, than that involved boarding an airplane, or renting a car... There is NOTHING, or NO ONE, to stop you from doing so - even for a solo voyage publicized well in advance, such as Matt Rutherford's... The ONLY person really preventing a sailor from doing so, is that sailor himself, intimidated by his own self-doubts or hesitancy...

As I stated earlier, for most sailors contemplating solo voyaging, the constraints of their insurance is far more likely to determine their choices, than the sort of academic discussion we've been having here re COLREGS... That's the primary reason, of course, why most singlehanders are out there on modest boats like mine, sailing for the most part self-insured...

The legendary singlehanders that largely comprise my list of personal heroes were among the most free-spirited, individualistic rogues the sailing world has ever known... Seriously, can anyone imagine a guy like Robin Knox-Johnston hesitating to set out on a solo passage, due to concern that he might be in technical violation of a COLREGS rule, or what some freakin' judge might conceivably rule in some imaginary, hypothetical courtroom? YGBSM...

While this thread has been interesting in a purely academic sense, ultimately it has little to do with the realities of solo or shorthanded passagemaking. IMHO, anyone overly obsessing with interpretations of "the rules" is looking for an excuse NOT to sail solo, and likely doesn't possess the array of qualities and skills it takes to do so safey, successfully, or enjoyably, anyway... Hell, part of the thrill and satisfaction derived from undertaking the challenge of singlehanding has to to with the somewhat "illicit" nature of the endeavor, for me... I liken it, for example, to the decision taken by an American to sail to Cuba... Sure, it's technically "forbidden", but for those willing to throw caution to the winds, and "Just DO It", the rewards can be immeasurable... Life is too short - if one waits until the Rule Makers give the thumbs up to do so, the opportunity to sail to a port like this one may never occur... Or, by the time it does, and it becomes permissible for "everyone" to do it, the experience will be little different from heading for the Bahamas, and being surrounded by other kroozers planning pot lucks on the morning VHF net, and running their on-deck Honda generators at sunset... (grin)



Even sweeter, perhaps, is to sail away from a place like Baracoa without clearing out of a country you're not supposed to be in to begin with, violating COLREGS for 25 minutes now and then during one of the most spectacular full moon nights I've ever experienced at sea, dropping the hook the following afternoon off Hog Cay, near Duncan Town in the Jumentos... Don't ask me how I might know this, however... (grin)
I wish I could tell I like it is like that,.. like it is . What? did you major in sailing and take a writing class as a second major. That was the most elequent (sp?) dissertaion (sp?) on sailnig solo I've ever read Jon. Well done you salty S.O.B..... And where on earth is the photo taken with all the tree's?
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Last edited by Capt.aaron; 09-28-2012 at 10:18 AM.
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  #193  
Old 09-28-2012
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Re: Is sleeping OK?

While I'm generally with Jon and agree that one rule should apply to all, I think Cruisingdad has a very valid point here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Realize that what is possible on a large commercial vessel is not feasible in a small sailing vessel. A large commercial vessel can lay waste to dozens of miles of shoreside. It can kill not only its own crew, but thousands of others. It can cause millions of dollars in loss of property. It can house dozens of crew and be stocked to go thousands of miles without stopping. A small vessel simply cannot do this. My little 45 gallons of diesel would hardly even be noticed. I am no liability to anyone but my own crew. I couldn't put a couple of dozen crew on my vessels if I wanted to. It simply is not logical to compare the two vessels.

Brian
I would argue though that there currently ARE two different standards, one for large commercial vessels and one for small pleasure boats. The difference is not in the COLREGS but in the requirement of a captain's licence.

While not foolproof (see also captain Joseph Hazelwood), the requirements to become a captain are fairly stringent and appropriately restrictive (except, obviously in the case of Capn' Aaron!) and require both study and sea-time. The licensure is also graded by tonnage, which is directly proportional to the damage one might be able to inflict. No such provisions exist for the sailor on a small vessel (hey they even let ME do it!!). I think that this is a reasonable standard and doesn't require different COLREGS for different vessels.

MedSailor

PS Jon, I really liked your post and attempted to add to your rep power. Sailnet tells me I can't do so because I've recently added to your rep power. I find this curious because I vaguely recall us having some disagreements on the past (but I can't remember about what). I guess I must have respected "something" that you said once. A well made argument for the single-hander and your speeding/speed-limit analogy is an interesting argument.
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  #194  
Old 09-28-2012
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Re: Is sleeping OK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.aaron View Post
I just got back from a 36 hour run and had to switch to another boat because my regular boat's radar was down and we could'nt opperate with out it. In the harbour we do. but not at sea.
Aaron, thanks, was wondering.
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  #195  
Old 09-28-2012
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Re: Is sleeping OK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post

If anyone has any suggestions as to how such rules can be re-written to "accommodate" vessels upon which a proper watch will not be maintained at all times, I'd love to hear it... Otherwise, I believe solo sailors will simply have to accept the risks involved in singlehanded voyaging...

Which is as it should be, IMHO...
"Rule 5(a). A sailing vessel with a displacement under 50,000 pounds and a top speed of less than fifteen nautical miles per hour being operated solely by one individual shall be deemed to have complied with the requirements for a proper lookout under this rule from sunset to sunrise provided the individual visually scans the entire horizon no less frequently than once every twenty minutes and remains in a traditional watch position on the foredeck or in the cockpit of the vessel."
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  #196  
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Re: Is sleeping OK?

Why restrict it to sailing vessels? Seagoing rowboats or "offshore kayaks" as well?

Something doesn't seem right to me about this.

You're doing ten knots, asleep. I'm doing ten, awake, we're closing at 20, or a mile every 3 minutes. I have three crew rotating watches, you have one. I fail to see you even though I was looking out visually. You looked out 19.9 minutes ago, when we were almost 7 miles apart.

I'm 100% at fault for my bad lookout, while you are "deemed to have complied with the requirements" of Rule 5?

Unfair.
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  #197  
Old 09-28-2012
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Re: Is sleeping OK?

Why restrict to sailing vessels?

Good point. Sailing vessels do have a history of solo voyages and are far more numerous and safer than rowboats or kayaks in the ocean. Do we really want to make life easier for kayakers and rowers? O.K. we'll include them anyway to make you happy.

Your scenario:

At 7 miles at night, I should be able to see a commercial ship and it may see me if we are both displaying the required lights, unless visibility is obscured. If I wake up and see lights, I am not falling back asleep again until that situation is resolved. I am also not going to sleep in the fog or pouring rain when visibility is decreased. Let us add a requirement that the solo sailor must display a masthead steaming light and an additional white light directed along the entire height of the mainsail to qualify under this exception. Let us also limit the exception to nighttime solo sailing without fog or substantial precipitation. That way you have no excuse for not seeing the sailboat and you cannot mistake it for a vessel under power because the sail is lit up.

I was trying to include the newer planing ocean racing boats with the displacement and speed numbers suggested. Perhaps we should lower the speed down to the traditional displacement sailboat. My boat once hit 8.5 knots sliding down a wave. The theoretical top speed is around 7 knots. Let's say 8 knot top speed. That should cover most medium and smaller-sized sailboats.

O.K., now I can't collide with you while I am asleep and you are clearly at fault for running down a poor, helpless sailboat, upholding the maritime tradition of solo sailing, while trying to catch a few winks...
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Last edited by jameswilson29; 09-28-2012 at 04:37 PM.
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  #198  
Old 09-28-2012
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Re: Is sleeping OK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Why restrict to sailing vessels?

Good point. Sailing vessels do have a history of solo voyages and are far more numerous and safer than rowboats or kayaks in the ocean. Do we really want to make life easier for kayakers and rowers? O.K. we'll include them anyway to make you happy.

Your scenario:

At 7 miles at night, I should be able to see a commercial ship and it may see me if we are both displaying the required lights, unless visibility is obscured. If I wake up and see lights, I am not falling back asleep again until that situation is resolved. I am also not going to sleep in the fog or pouring rain when visibility is decreased. Let us add a requirement that the solo sailor must display a masthead steaming light and an additional white light directed along the entire height of the mainsail to qualify under this exception. Let us also limit the exception to nighttime solo sailing without fog or substantial precipitation. That way you have no excuse for not seeing the sailboat and you cannot mistake it for a vessel under power because the sail is lit up.

I was trying to include the newer planing ocean racing boats with the displacement and speed numbers suggested. Perhaps we should lower the speed down to the traditional displacement sailboat. My boat once hit 8.5 knots sliding down a wave. The theoretical top speed is around 7 knots. Let's say 8 knot top speed. That should cover most medium and smaller-sized sailboats.

O.K., now I can't collide with you while I am asleep and you are clearly at fault for running down a poor, helpless sailboat, upholding the maritime tradition of solo sailing, while trying to catch a few winks...
ya
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  #199  
Old 09-28-2012
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Re: Is sleeping OK?

love the pic"s
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  #200  
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Re: Is sleeping OK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Quote:

Originally Posted by JonEisberg

If anyone has any suggestions as to how such rules can be re-written to "accommodate" vessels upon which a proper watch will not be maintained at all times, I'd love to hear it... Otherwise, I believe solo sailors will simply have to accept the risks involved in singlehanded voyaging...

Which is as it should be, IMHO...
"Rule 5(a). A sailing vessel with a displacement under 50,000 pounds and a top speed of less than fifteen nautical miles per hour being operated solely by one individual shall be deemed to have complied with the requirements for a proper lookout under this rule from sunset to sunrise provided the individual visually scans the entire horizon no less frequently than once every twenty minutes and remains in a traditional watch position on the foredeck or in the cockpit of the vessel."
Well, that's a very good set of guidelines for a singlehanded sailor, but good luck getting such an exemption ever written into COLREGS... I seriously doubt the Singlehanded Sailor's lobbying group has sufficient clout to do so...(grin)

Not to mention, good luck finding an insurance underwriter to issue coverage for such a float plan... You might find someone to do it, but I'll bet it would cost you. bigtime...

The more I think about it, the more I become convinced there is absolutely no way to "modify" COLREGS rules on watchstanding to endorse the realities of singlehanded sailing... I'm telling you guys, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell..." is the ONLY way to treat this whole deal... (grin)

Last edited by JonEisberg; 09-28-2012 at 06:31 PM.
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