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Hello again, I have another ? 4 U. If you are running at night and your sails are down, do you need the steaming light? If you are not sailing, wouldn't you be the same as a power boat? I'm asking cause I am getting alot of different answers. Thanks.
Short answer is if you're not anchored, and not disabled (Vessel not under command), you are considered to be Under Way, and the lighting requirements are only changed by whether you're under power or not.
The requirements for lights are the same as for a similar sized power boat if you are not sailing. If sailing at night, you won't need the steaming light, however.
You may get different anwers, but there's only one correct anser: When under power, a Sailboat is a"power-driven vessel" and abide by all the right of way rules for such. USCG Navigation Rules Onlin
Rule 3 - General Definitions
For the purpose of these Rules and this Chapter, except where the context otherwise requires:
(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft, including non-displacement craft, [WIG craft], and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.
(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.
(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
Okay, this is a test:
Sails are down, you are drifting with the wind and current, the autopilot is engaged, the engine is running, the transmission is in neutral, it is nighttime, youre having dinner in the cockpit with cockpit lights on. What navigation lights do you show?
My theory on this is, I don't so much care at night if other vessels can tell whether I'm under power or sail... I just want them to see me. So whether sailing or motoring, at night I use every exterior light I've got. It's funny how deck mounted running lights can blend nicely into the shore lights in the background, but the masthead steaming light stands out like a beacon against a dark sky, appearing above the background lights. I'm aware it's not technically correct, but sometimes common sense is called for over the books - especially in reduced visibility, light yourself up as much as you can. Only negative I can see is another vessel not knowing that you, under sail, have right of way... but I don't care about that at night. I'd rather just give myself the extra visibility, and have us both alter course instead of marking myself as the stand on vessel.
My theory on this is, I don't so much care at night if other vessels can tell whether I'm under power or sail... I just want them to see me. So whether sailing or motoring, at night I use every exterior light I've got. .... I'm aware it's not technically correct, but sometimes common sense is called for over the books - especially in reduced visibility, light yourself up as much as you can. Only negative I can see is another vessel not knowing that you, under sail, have right of way... ..l.
This is very bad practice. You're setting the circumstance where a powerboat to starboard will believe you are the giveway vessel, while you believe otherwise. should a collision occur, you will be largely at fault, maybe 100%. Maybe you don't care about at fault but a damaged or sunk boat, or injured friends, is inconvenient.
Hah... if I was that big I don't think I'd be worrying about being seen. 27 ft sloop, and "all those extra lights" consists of one masthead steaming light, the original subject of the thread I thought...
OK, I'm in a 20ft open power boat, they don't have 'steaming' lights, but are under power, so why do WE need to have one? Why would you not be a 'power boat' with sails down? Am I being stupid on this? If so I'm sorry, but I just don't see the difference between a sailboat under power with sail down, and running on power only. Help.
Nope, you're exactly right. If you're operating under power at all - even motorsailing - you're a power boat. The lighting difference is, a sailboat shows a white running light visible from the back third of the vessel. A powerboat shows a white light visible 360 degrees. On sailboats, this is often a white "steaming light" on the masthead.
How about spreader lights faceing down on at night for more visiblity , would that be considered "steaming light"? ( seems it would be hard to tell the differance between a masthead light and a spreader light both are up high).
Im all for doing things correctly ( the whole point of learning) but trying to as safe as possible (makeing shure your seen) seems to be as important .
As being Captn of vessel all safety responsibility rest on his shoulders..just seems prudent to me & no I am not a Capt yet I ask because Im learning...
How about spreader lights faceing down on at night for more visiblity , would that be considered "steaming light"? ( seems it would be hard to tell the differance between a masthead light and a spreader light both are up high).
Im all for doing things correctly ( the whole point of learning) but trying to as safe as possible (makeing shure your seen) seems to be as important .
As being Captn of vessel all safety responsibility rest on his shoulders..just seems prudent to me & no I am not a Capt yet I ask because Im learning...
Being seen is only half the purpose of the navigation lights. The other half is
to let the other vessel know how they must deal with you. ( give way, or stand on ) and what they should be able to " expect" of you..
showing deck lights, without a steaming light...if you are underpower, is inappropriate..and more likely to result in a problem..
No, that was my point... I DON'T believe otherwise. I fully intend to behave in accordance with the lights I'm showing, and act as a powerboat when it comes time to give way. Inconvenient for me, but a small trade off for the extra visibility, is how I see it.
No, that was my point... I DON'T believe otherwise. I fully intend to behave in accordance with the lights I'm showing, and act as a powerboat when it comes time to give way...
Nope, still leaves your bad practice, a bad practice. If you are on starboard and a port tack sailboat believes you a giveway vessel (i.e. a powerboat) and you think otherwise...well you've heard the rest of the dialog.
Being a giveway versus a standon vessel present mutually exclusive obligations, and expectations from the other parties.
PS - Andrea Doria sunk due to confusion about which vessel was standon...
Thanks Jackdale, you're correct. I didn't word my explanation very well. The 2 whites total 360 degree visibility is what I meant but didn't say very well.
Sailingfool, thank you for your continuing use of the terms "Stand on" and Give way" as opposed to the more commonly used and arrogant (and often mis-used) term "Right of way".
It would be interesting to do a survey of recreational boaters, sail and power, to see if they understand the terms "Stand on" and "Give way". The response might truly be scarry.
Jackdale, reading that decision only makes me more concerned about a court agreeing with the argrument that I wasn't under power because I was in neutral at the time of collision.
I think most of us are just advocating the use of the correct lighting to reduce confusion as intended. When I see a boat with the wrong lights I assume the operator didn't know what was appropriate so just "turned them all on".
I once asked a friend with a 1600 ton Masters License about what constitutes "under power", and he said that "if the machinery is turning" (i.e., the motor is on, in gear or not) a vessel is "under power". I suppose that wouldn't include a genset, since it can't turn the prop.
Slow .... he may well have said that but I'm still of the opinion from reading the regs that unless the propulsion machinery is engaged the vessel is not under power.
(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.
(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards.
Ok so I am no maritime lawyer however a vessel with power plant operating though gearbox not engaged surely cannot be said to be being propelled by machinery.
This is just silly. I've already explained that your scenario is meaningless because it wouldn't happen... if I light myself as a powerboat, I'll certainly know I did that, and certainly behave as a powerboat. Yeah, I'm going to light myself as a powerboat and then quibble over stand-on / give-way status as though I were a sailboat... how does that even make any sense? Let's face it... a LOT more collisions happen because the boats simply did not see each other, than happen because of confusion over status. Even if you're convinced you're stand-on, are you really going to press it all the way to a collision with another vessel that you're aware of? First and foremost, in a small boat on a dark night, you want to be SEEN.
Standards, best practices etc are good things. They keep a lot of people safe in a lot of circumstances. But there's a point where you have to be able to think for yourself. In my aviation career, I've seen a couple people follow that rulebook right into the ground. This lighting scenario is obviously not that drastic, but it's kind of the same idea - if the circumstances are such that deviating from the rules in a conservative way is actually safer, and you are properly aware of what you're doing (realizing how others will perceive you in a right of way scenario), then it's sometimes the smarter option. It's all about JUDGEMENT. On a visibility-compromised night, choosing not to use an available highly visible light is, to me, poor judgment.
Agree or disagree, doesn't matter... at least hopefully you'll see me if we ever meet at night. And who knows, maybe I'll end up having to give way to you even though, if I turned off the steaming light, I'd be the stand-on. Maybe then you'd stop complaining. ;-)
So I'd be exercising poor judgement by sailing at night without my steaming light, anchor light and deck lights ? Interesting viewpoint, landing lights on always also ?
Of course if you choose to have your steaming light illuminated then you are , propeller engaged or not, a power boat. There can be no quibble about that, surely.
I guess the question would be answered by the racing fraternity. Pretty much every top flight racing boat these days has their engine running 24 hours a day in order to keep power going to the canting keel mechanism and their plethora of electronic equipment.
So I'd be exercising poor judgement by sailing at night without my steaming light, anchor light and deck lights ? Interesting viewpoint, landing lights on always also ?
Anchor light could be problematic, producing the appearance that you aren't moving. Deck lights, yeah if I had them they'd be on unless they affected my night vision. Landing lights always on? Below 18 (the equivalent of nearshore sailing, where there's more general aviation traffic), yeah you betcha. That IS an industry standard.
Red for me, white for the mate. And put a couple of cubes in hers.
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