Question for those who sail cutters - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree16Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 10-13-2012
JulieMor's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 853
Thanks: 47
Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 4
JulieMor is on a distinguished road
Re: Question for those who sail cutters

The genny was probably 130-140% and pretty close to being a deck sweeper. When I was at the helm the first thing I thought was, for a cruising boat, the genny needed to be cut higher. It really made it difficult to see what was in your path and that's especially bad in a congested area like the Chesapeake.

So from what I'm reading, the large, low-cut genny would need assistance in getting it through the slot in most instances. This seems like a handicap for short-handed sailing.

When we were on the Tartan 4300 at the boat show, it was rigged with two furling headsails, maybe 8-12 inches apart. Their brochure shows the boat under sail with the genny up. You would HAVE to furl that before tacking. I can't imagine anyone just tacking and allowing the genny to chafe on the secondary furler.

On the Sabre 456 (a sloop), they had it rigged with a self-tacking jib. This would probably work well in place of the genny on cutters. I'm just not sure how efficient that sail setup would be though.

But, unless you're traveling long distances, it seems like a lot of work to have to furl your genny before tacking. And certainly, if you're racing, this is not good. And if you're an AARP candidate , you'd better be in good shape or have an electric winch for your furler.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 10-13-2012
RichH's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,881
Thanks: 9
Thanked 77 Times in 70 Posts
Rep Power: 15
RichH will become famous soon enough
Re: Question for those who sail cutters

With the headstays being so close together ... this is a solent rig, not a true cutter rig. A solent rig is usually used in the following manner:
1. the 'inside' sail is flown in the normal manner ... the sail is tacked and gybed 'through the foretriangle'
2. the 'outside' or 'more forward' sail is usually gybed 'out and around', the sheets are arranged so that when tacking or gybing the clew is allowed to 'blow' out well in front of the boat .... tacking is usually by gybing through 270°.
The 'inside' sail is usually 'heavier' sail material; the 'outside sail' is usually 'lighter' sail material and thus has better ability to be gybed/tacked 'out and around' (not 'through' the foretriangle') ... of course the more forward sail can be tacked by furling ... but that is a big PITA especially if one is doing a lot of 'short tacks'.
In any venue that requires 'short tacks', its always better to disconnect the ('inner' stay) forestay, and simply sail the boat as a 'sloop rig'.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 10-13-2012
Faster's Avatar
Just another Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New Westminster, BC
Posts: 14,924
Thanks: 75
Thanked 214 Times in 206 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about
Re: Question for those who sail cutters

Bob Perry's Saga series used two headsails very close together and the intention was, I'm pretty sure, that this was to be a long passage maker rather than a 'beat up the bay' sort of boat.

Self tacking sails have some obvious upsides, but are necessarily short LP sails that can hurt light air performance. Still, any boat that's reasonably powered up should be able to sail quite nicely with a 'working jib' or '110' or so once the breeze tops 6 knots true .. that gives you apparent winds on a beat somewhere around 8 - 10 knots, comfortable pressure, and the ease of tacking a 'jib' over a genoa makes a long beat much easier.

If you're cruising it's more likely you'll be motoring anyway if your destination is upwind and the wind is too light...
jrd22 and jackdale like this.
__________________
Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 10-13-2012
RichH's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,881
Thanks: 9
Thanked 77 Times in 70 Posts
Rep Power: 15
RichH will become famous soon enough
Re: Question for those who sail cutters

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post

On the Sabre 456 (a sloop), they had it rigged with a self-tacking jib. This would probably work well in place of the genny on cutters. I'm just not sure how efficient that sail setup would be though.
Invariably, using a staysail, no 'headsail' and full up mainsail will result in heavy helm problems (weather helm) ... on most cutters, for neutral helm or minimal so called 'weather helm' when flying ONLY the staysail + main .... its usuallly also required that the mainsail have at least have ONE reef in so that the sail plan is 'balanced' with respect to 'weather helm'. You reefing sequence for a cutter rig - "back to front": main, then headsail, then staysl. Most (true) cutters will sail along nicely on just a staysail because the CE is usually in front of the mast and IN the staysl.

If one sails with only the staysail and a *full up* main, you usually wind up dragging the rudder somewhat sideways to compensate for the developed 'weather helm'.
You can use this two sail combo (with full up mainsail and staysl) but it almost requires that the main be cross-cut woven dacron and the main be shaped 'board flat' by the outhaul, and with extreme main halyard tension to relocate the point of maximum draft in the main well forward of 'normal'. The problem with this extraordinary 'shape' is that a 'flattened' sail is a speed shape for sailing in 'flat water' and will be 'lousy' for 'blasting' through high chop or high waves where a full drafted shape is needed to provide the 'power' (second gear).

BTW ... using a BIG genoa 'over' a staysail is of little aerodynamic benefit when 'pointing', as the leech of the genoa HAS to be 'ahead' of the leech of the staysail for any aerodynamic advantage ..... when 'pointing'. Using a BIG genoa 'over' a staysail when 'pointing' probably has only a slight advantage of reducing mast turbulence and flow over the mainsail ... and not much more than that and only at 'moderate wind speeds'.

Sailing a Cutter rig is VERY different than sailing a sloop ... the aerodynamics are quite 'different' and it really takes a bit of time to get it right.

JeffH usually recommends a fractional with big mainsail ... except for downwind or broad reaching, I might agree with him due to the 'overall versatility' of the frac. rig over a cutter rig.

Last edited by RichH; 10-13-2012 at 11:19 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 10-13-2012
JulieMor's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 853
Thanks: 47
Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 4
JulieMor is on a distinguished road
Re: Question for those who sail cutters

Here's a picture of the Tartan 4300:


When we were on the boat that close proximity to the two headsails made me wonder about tacking. I knew this wasn't a cutter but had never seen this forward sail setup close up. Is this a solent rig? Is the advantage of this rig having both light air and heavy air sails always at your disposal?

I can see being out and the weather changes, furling the reacher and pulling out the self tacking jib. That's pretty convenient. But tacking with the reacher would seem to create some additional work. Daysailing, one might only pull out the jib.

It's interesting to learn about the different rigs. I can see how the setup on the Tartan makes sense now. But I still can't see the advantages of a cutter rig.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 10-13-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 213
Thanks: 5
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 6
ctl411 is on a distinguished road
Re: Question for those who sail cutters

True cutter advantage mast is located close to center easier motion when working at mast. Easy to adapt to changing wind speed without changing sails . Ever try to change a large head sail on a 30 plus foot sloop? Storing all the head sails for a sloop also takes a lot of room on the boat. Can be self tacking under main and staysail if on a boom. I often sail this way when short tacking up lake macatawa. Easy to balance helm so its easier on autopilots.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 10-13-2012
jackdale's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 8,923
Thanks: 27
Thanked 52 Times in 49 Posts
Rep Power: 6
jackdale will become famous soon enough
Re: Question for those who sail cutters

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
But I still can't see the advantages of a cutter rig.
On many cutter rigs, the mast is shorter. A shorter mast will lower the center of effort of the sails, resulting in a stiffer rig.

Additional sails provide more options and versatility in sail plans. A cutter rigged ketch is my ideal offshore boat because you are able to balance the boat and steer it with the mizzen. Harden the mizzen and you head up, ease the mizzen and you bear aay.

Offshore boats do not change tacks very often. For coastal cruising a sloop with a genoa / jib and mainsail are much more convenient as you do change tacks more regularly.
chef2sail likes this.
__________________
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203, 204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #18  
Old 10-13-2012
RichH's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,881
Thanks: 9
Thanked 77 Times in 70 Posts
Rep Power: 15
RichH will become famous soon enough
Re: Question for those who sail cutters

That's a solent rig - two forward stay very close together.
They have problems in pointing!!! ... because the TWO forward stays 'share' the load of the backstay, and the stay that carries the 'sail load' unloads into the non-sailing stay because the mast and backstay system being 'elastic'.

They're great for downwind where forestay tension can/should be 'sloppy'. To me, the solent rig is an 'ok' idea; but, really needs independent-on-the-fly means of 'forestay' tensioning. To support BOTH 'forestays' with proper tension (for sail shape considerations) you really have to put 'bodaceous' loads on that backstay ... and that isnt 'good' with respect to fatigue failure considerations. The alternative, is to have the headsails specially cut along the luff so that the sail can properly 'match' the inherent forestay sag when you have TWO forward stays. Without such 'compensation' such a boat is going to 'point' like a pig.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #19  
Old 10-13-2012
Faster's Avatar
Just another Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New Westminster, BC
Posts: 14,924
Thanks: 75
Thanked 214 Times in 206 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about
Re: Question for those who sail cutters

On the Tartan I saw at our local brokerage (and a similarly rigged Bene 40 in our marina) the forwardmost sail was/appeared to be a roller furled Asail - in which case there may not be a 'stay' there at all. Upwind work would be handled by the inner sail, when you peel off the wind you roll out the 'screacher' and carry on.
chef2sail likes this.
__________________
Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #20  
Old 10-13-2012
wingNwing's Avatar
formerly posting as eryka
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: aboard s/v Cinderella
Posts: 1,123
Thanks: 5
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 7
wingNwing is on a distinguished road
Re: Question for those who sail cutters

Ours is a true cutter and we do what jrd does, fly the staysail to keep the jib from hanging up on the stay in a tack. We modified the inner forestay to be able to remove it and stow it against the lifelines when we're puttering about in the Chesapeake and doing lots of tacking; then we're just a sloop. What we love about the cutter is its flexibility - when the winds are heavier we roll up the jib and balance so sweetly with double-reefed main and staysail only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrd22 View Post
Some have more room between the stays than others so it can vary as to the PITA factor. True cutters generally have a wider slot than a cutter rigged sloop like I have so I've found them easier in most cases. What I do is if I am sailing upwind, or even a beam reach, I'll fly the staysail as well as the genny. When I tack I'll leave the staysail sheeted tight and release the genny sheet at the normal time. This allows the genoa to slide along the "wall" created by the staysail and slide through the slot without any hangups. As soon as it's clear I tack the staysail. Dead down wind can be interesting, but in light wind I can usually get the genny to go through OK, in stronger winds I furl it in most of the way and then let it out on the other side. You get used to to it, but that's why you don't see many cutters racing:-))
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Cinderella, CSY 33, Photo by Joe McCary

Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. - Sidney J. Harris


Shameless self-promotion - my blog for the Annapolis Capital newspaper:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
still has some glitches to be worked out. Until then, I'm posting at:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
! And a new project:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Prop/Shaft Cutters? T37Chef Gear & Maintenance 5 03-20-2010 06:54 PM
Bristol Channel Cutters welch Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 05-14-2004 07:24 PM
45 CC cutters are the most popular cruising boats...huh? JohnDrake Boat Review and Purchase Forum 27 11-29-2003 08:37 AM
JeffH - Question on cutters el General Discussion (sailing related) 6 09-05-2003 06:50 PM
Sailing Cutters Stede Boat Review and Purchase Forum 6 06-10-2003 07:34 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:10 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.