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Question for those who sail cutters

5K views 26 replies 15 participants last post by  fallard 
#1 ·
All of my sailing experience has been on sloop rigged boats. When at the Annapolis boat show we went out on a 54' Hylas, a cutter rig. Every time we tacked one of the crew was up on the bow pushing the genoa over and around the staysail to complete the tack. I've never seen this before.

Is it that much more difficult to tack that you need a crew member up there to get the sail through the slot or was I just seeing inexperience?

And what does one do with a double headsail configuration, where you have only inches between the stays? Tartan had this setup on their 4300.
 
#2 ·
Even a 'baby stay' can seriously interfere with tacking on some boats. I'd imagine a staysail would be even worse.

I believe that on the double headsail rigs you mention, if you're on the forward sail it's expected you'd roll the sail up, tack and unfurl and carry on. (unless the outer sail is a A sail and you do an outside gybe downwind) If you're on the inside sail it's no issue. These rigs are not intended for short upwind legs with any significant frequency of tacks.

Was the staysail flying, or was it just the forestay/furler than was the hangup? In the case of the Hylas it may well have been quicker (and easier on the sail) to partially furl and unfurl the sail during the tack.
 
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#3 ·
Some have more room between the stays than others so it can vary as to the PITA factor. True cutters generally have a wider slot than a cutter rigged sloop like I have so I've found them easier in most cases. What I do is if I am sailing upwind, or even a beam reach, I'll fly the staysail as well as the genny. When I tack I'll leave the staysail sheeted tight and release the genny sheet at the normal time. This allows the genoa to slide along the "wall" created by the staysail and slide through the slot without any hangups. As soon as it's clear I tack the staysail. Dead down wind can be interesting, but in light wind I can usually get the genny to go through OK, in stronger winds I furl it in most of the way and then let it out on the other side. You get used to to it, but that's why you don't see many cutters racing:))
 
#20 ·
Ours is a true cutter and we do what jrd does, fly the staysail to keep the jib from hanging up on the stay in a tack. We modified the inner forestay to be able to remove it and stow it against the lifelines when we're puttering about in the Chesapeake and doing lots of tacking; then we're just a sloop. What we love about the cutter is its flexibility - when the winds are heavier we roll up the jib and balance so sweetly with double-reefed main and staysail only.
 
#4 ·
I have been a a few boats with stowable stays on which we rig a heavier air sail.

We furl the genoa when changing tacks. Of course, this is an offshore set up so we only change tacks rarely.

I do like jrd's solution and will give a try.
 
#5 ·
This looks like a sistership to the one we were on:


When I was at the helm I tried to thread the genny through the slot without needing assistance. The guy who was hired as a temp captain seemed very nervous (the owners were aboard) and coached everyone at the wheel, whether they needed it or not.

Before boarding he asked if we had any sailing experience. I gave him a brief description of mine and he said, "That's great! The last group had no idea what they were doing." So I thought we established some trust.

Once we were out on the water he hovered over anyone who took the wheel, so I never got the chance to get a good feel for the boat or if I could control the tack sufficiently to get the genny to thread through the slot without manual help.

I did find however that the helm on that boat was VERY slow to respond. And I've sailed some heavy displacement boats. It seemed the helm needed some fine tuning but maybe that's inherent in Hylas yachts.
 
#6 ·
To a great extent it depends on sail size and wind strength (probably as some factor of the size of the staysail and gap size). Our 100% yankee headsail has never caught. Our 130% genoa will need walking every time in winds under about 12knots. Partially rolling it up helps!

[Edit - in other words "what he said" now my browser decided to catch up and show the other posts, or I opened my eyes]
 
#7 · (Edited)
We have a cutter and find that if it is blowing around 8 or 10 kts. the genny presents no issues on the tack usually carrying itself through the slot without assistance. Our genny is very high cut, which I believe helps. As mentioned earlier, by jrd22, it also sometimes helps if the stay-sail is also up to help guide the genny through and support it as it passes toward the slot. If winds are light we sometime help it through by going forward and other times we partially roll it in and let it out again on the other tack. It is more difficult if the stay-sail is not being used and is still rolled up as the genny encounters more friction and seems to be divided by the stay-sail, part going through the slot and part caught behind. It can be a PITA but we love the rig.
 
#8 ·
On my cutter when I tack, the staysl is only released after the genoa goes through between the headstay and forestay .... the bulk of the genoa 'slides' across the unreleased staysl.

When downwind, I simply re-rig the genoa sheets to gybe 'out and around', the staysl is on a clubfoot and I simply gybe that (and usually sail the Genoa/staysl combo 'wing and wing'.
 
#10 ·
Juliemor, from the photo the gap between the genoa and staysail seems like a generous slot to tack the genoa. What size was the genoa and was it a deck-sweeper? I have a true cutter rig and I have no trouble tacking my high-cut 110& genoa. As noted in the posts above, perhaps being high-cut makes this operation easier. When I tack I just wait until I'm through the wind before I haul on the gib sheet. The wind does the rest and pushes the sail through the slot.
 
#11 ·
The genny was probably 130-140% and pretty close to being a deck sweeper. When I was at the helm the first thing I thought was, for a cruising boat, the genny needed to be cut higher. It really made it difficult to see what was in your path and that's especially bad in a congested area like the Chesapeake.

So from what I'm reading, the large, low-cut genny would need assistance in getting it through the slot in most instances. This seems like a handicap for short-handed sailing.

When we were on the Tartan 4300 at the boat show, it was rigged with two furling headsails, maybe 8-12 inches apart. Their brochure shows the boat under sail with the genny up. You would HAVE to furl that before tacking. I can't imagine anyone just tacking and allowing the genny to chafe on the secondary furler.

On the Sabre 456 (a sloop), they had it rigged with a self-tacking jib. This would probably work well in place of the genny on cutters. I'm just not sure how efficient that sail setup would be though.

But, unless you're traveling long distances, it seems like a lot of work to have to furl your genny before tacking. And certainly, if you're racing, this is not good. And if you're an AARP candidate :rolleyes:, you'd better be in good shape or have an electric winch for your furler.
 
#14 · (Edited)
On the Sabre 456 (a sloop), they had it rigged with a self-tacking jib. This would probably work well in place of the genny on cutters. I'm just not sure how efficient that sail setup would be though.
Invariably, using a staysail, no 'headsail' and full up mainsail will result in heavy helm problems (weather helm) ... on most cutters, for neutral helm or minimal so called 'weather helm' when flying ONLY the staysail + main .... its usuallly also required that the mainsail have at least have ONE reef in so that the sail plan is 'balanced' with respect to 'weather helm'. You reefing sequence for a cutter rig - "back to front": main, then headsail, then staysl. Most (true) cutters will sail along nicely on just a staysail because the CE is usually in front of the mast and IN the staysl.

If one sails with only the staysail and a *full up* main, you usually wind up dragging the rudder somewhat sideways to compensate for the developed 'weather helm'.
You can use this two sail combo (with full up mainsail and staysl) but it almost requires that the main be cross-cut woven dacron and the main be shaped 'board flat' by the outhaul, and with extreme main halyard tension to relocate the point of maximum draft in the main well forward of 'normal'. The problem with this extraordinary 'shape' is that a 'flattened' sail is a speed shape for sailing in 'flat water' and will be 'lousy' for 'blasting' through high chop or high waves where a full drafted shape is needed to provide the 'power' (second gear).

BTW ... using a BIG genoa 'over' a staysail is of little aerodynamic benefit when 'pointing', as the leech of the genoa HAS to be 'ahead' of the leech of the staysail for any aerodynamic advantage ..... when 'pointing'. Using a BIG genoa 'over' a staysail when 'pointing' probably has only a slight advantage of reducing mast turbulence and flow over the mainsail ... and not much more than that and only at 'moderate wind speeds'.

Sailing a Cutter rig is VERY different than sailing a sloop ... the aerodynamics are quite 'different' and it really takes a bit of time to get it right.

JeffH usually recommends a fractional with big mainsail ... except for downwind or broad reaching, I might agree with him due to the 'overall versatility' of the frac. rig over a cutter rig.
 
#12 ·
With the headstays being so close together ... this is a solent rig, not a true cutter rig. A solent rig is usually used in the following manner:
1. the 'inside' sail is flown in the normal manner ... the sail is tacked and gybed 'through the foretriangle'
2. the 'outside' or 'more forward' sail is usually gybed 'out and around', the sheets are arranged so that when tacking or gybing the clew is allowed to 'blow' out well in front of the boat .... tacking is usually by gybing through 270°.
The 'inside' sail is usually 'heavier' sail material; the 'outside sail' is usually 'lighter' sail material and thus has better ability to be gybed/tacked 'out and around' (not 'through' the foretriangle') ... of course the more forward sail can be tacked by furling ... but that is a big PITA especially if one is doing a lot of 'short tacks'.
In any venue that requires 'short tacks', its always better to disconnect the ('inner' stay) forestay, and simply sail the boat as a 'sloop rig'.
 
#13 ·
Bob Perry's Saga series used two headsails very close together and the intention was, I'm pretty sure, that this was to be a long passage maker rather than a 'beat up the bay' sort of boat.

Self tacking sails have some obvious upsides, but are necessarily short LP sails that can hurt light air performance. Still, any boat that's reasonably powered up should be able to sail quite nicely with a 'working jib' or '110' or so once the breeze tops 6 knots true .. that gives you apparent winds on a beat somewhere around 8 - 10 knots, comfortable pressure, and the ease of tacking a 'jib' over a genoa makes a long beat much easier.

If you're cruising it's more likely you'll be motoring anyway if your destination is upwind and the wind is too light...
 
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#15 ·
Here's a picture of the Tartan 4300:


When we were on the boat that close proximity to the two headsails made me wonder about tacking. I knew this wasn't a cutter but had never seen this forward sail setup close up. Is this a solent rig? Is the advantage of this rig having both light air and heavy air sails always at your disposal?

I can see being out and the weather changes, furling the reacher and pulling out the self tacking jib. That's pretty convenient. But tacking with the reacher would seem to create some additional work. Daysailing, one might only pull out the jib.

It's interesting to learn about the different rigs. I can see how the setup on the Tartan makes sense now. But I still can't see the advantages of a cutter rig.
 
#17 ·
But I still can't see the advantages of a cutter rig.
On many cutter rigs, the mast is shorter. A shorter mast will lower the center of effort of the sails, resulting in a stiffer rig.

Additional sails provide more options and versatility in sail plans. A cutter rigged ketch is my ideal offshore boat because you are able to balance the boat and steer it with the mizzen. Harden the mizzen and you head up, ease the mizzen and you bear aay.

Offshore boats do not change tacks very often. For coastal cruising a sloop with a genoa / jib and mainsail are much more convenient as you do change tacks more regularly.
 
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#16 ·
True cutter advantage mast is located close to center easier motion when working at mast. Easy to adapt to changing wind speed without changing sails . Ever try to change a large head sail on a 30 plus foot sloop? Storing all the head sails for a sloop also takes a lot of room on the boat. Can be self tacking under main and staysail if on a boom. I often sail this way when short tacking up lake macatawa. Easy to balance helm so its easier on autopilots.
 
#18 ·
That's a solent rig - two forward stay very close together.
They have problems in pointing!!! ... because the TWO forward stays 'share' the load of the backstay, and the stay that carries the 'sail load' unloads into the non-sailing stay because the mast and backstay system being 'elastic'.

They're great for downwind where forestay tension can/should be 'sloppy'. To me, the solent rig is an 'ok' idea; but, really needs independent-on-the-fly means of 'forestay' tensioning. To support BOTH 'forestays' with proper tension (for sail shape considerations) you really have to put 'bodaceous' loads on that backstay ... and that isnt 'good' with respect to fatigue failure considerations. The alternative, is to have the headsails specially cut along the luff so that the sail can properly 'match' the inherent forestay sag when you have TWO forward stays. Without such 'compensation' such a boat is going to 'point' like a pig.
 
#19 ·
On the Tartan I saw at our local brokerage (and a similarly rigged Bene 40 in our marina) the forwardmost sail was/appeared to be a roller furled Asail - in which case there may not be a 'stay' there at all. Upwind work would be handled by the inner sail, when you peel off the wind you roll out the 'screacher' and carry on.
 
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#21 ·
Tartan markets that arrangement as their "Cruise Control Rig"... A good arrangement in theory, but IMHO it primarily is a marketing deal, and their target market is those who never want to have to set foot out of the cockpit, and for whom "ease of sailing" tops the list...

A far better arrangement, seems to me, is simply to have the provision to fly a Code 0 from a free-flying furler whenever you want to do so. But of course, that entails a bit of actual "work - hoisting it, running the sheets, and so on... Many folks today would prefer to live with the considerable tradeoffs/downsides Rich H mentions, problems with headstay tension, the airflow over the self-tacker disturbed by the furled reacher, and so on...

One thing I really don't like about the permanent stowage of that type of sail on a furler, is the absence of a UV cover... You're not gonna put a UV cover on a light air reaching sail, and those sails are built to a rather limited wind range to begin with, the last thing you want to do is further weaken their construction and material by constant exposure to UV...

Seems like to prolong the life of the sail, you'd have to be routinely removing it from the furler, anyway... Stowing a reacher on a free-flying furler winds up being less "work", in the end...

But, the folks in the Marketing Department don't see it that way, so... (grin)
 
#22 ·
I've cruised and raced on sloops. That's all I know first hand. While I'm learning a lot about other rigs, I'm finding myself thinking the sloop just seems a lot less complicated and can get where you want to go just as safely as any other rig.

I realize having several sails hanging, ready to be furled or unfurled when needed, can make things easier but there seems to be a lot more in maintaining and even handling them.

I started sailing by hanking on whatever foresail we were flying. And stowing them, etc. And yes, they were good old dacron. But that was 30+ years ago. Today I'm thinking ease of handling and simplicity.

But right now I have to mow the lawn, rake the leaves, clean out the gutters, trim the bushes, put the flowers to bed for winter, paint a bedroom, clean the kitchen, do the laundry... :rolleyes:
 
#27 ·
We have a sloop with a baby stay and running backstays which we only used on our 1700 mile delivery trip from Florida to New England. The baby stay was rigged for the offshore segments and turned the boat into a cutter.

We didn't have much of a problem tacking, but we didn't tack all that often, either, so the cutter rig is probably easy enough to handle on a long passage.

On the other hand, I've got several months' experience sailing cutter-rigged Island Packets in New England and the Virgin Islands. The Island Packets were not impressive for short-tacking. About a quarter of the time, the genoa would hang up in the slot. There were a couple of times when I turned the motor on to pass through the wind, which had as much to do with the modified full keel configuration. There is probably a learning curve for tacking a cutter rig, but it shouldn't be that big a deal.

That said, the cutter rig can be more comfortable (and stiffer) when the wind picks up, so it is all a matter of boat design compromise. I would disagree with an earlier blogger that the aerodynamics of a cutter rig are much different that that for a sloop. You need to manage the slot between sails in either case. In a tradewinds area, I would find the cutter to be worth consideration. In lighter air, I'll stick with a sloop rig.
 
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