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Old 10-13-2012
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Lazy bag and reefs for stay sail

1 - Has someone used some sort of lazy jacks and a lazy bag for the jib (not a furling sail)?

2- Has someone experience with a jib of Genoa with reefs (not a furling sail).

I explain: My boat works overall better with a 140% genoa but over 18/20k works better with a jib (if not downwind). I have a Genoa and a jib but it is not practical to change alone the big genoa for a jib, I mean taking the genoa out of the furler and putting the jib there.

I have a removable stay (that is fixed in almost the same place where is the fixed stay (and furler). That stay is for a storm sail (and I have one).

I had the jib modified in a way that can be mounted easily on the removable stay.

But of course that is only half the problem, the mast is high (performance 40ft) and the sail is big so taking the jib out of a normal bag and mount it alone with a boat in motion and a lots of wind will be difficult.

I am thinking of a big long bag that can be tied in place with the sail already in a position to be set. In fact I have one that I think was used for easy deploying sails while racing with a crew but I want to improve it, I mean I want it in a way that makes not only easy to deploy the sail but also to take it down (for using the 140% genoa again or the storm sail) and easily folded in the bag. I mean the bag and the lazy jacks would not be permanently in place but just quickly mounted to make easy to put down and fold the sail.

After that I would just fold the bag in four and let it fall on the sail locker that is just in place for that.

Regarding furling the front sail, well, if I put it with 20k and the wind increases to 35k true wind or over I would need to reef that sail. To give you an Idea I have sailed with that sail alone (no main) on 30/33 apparent wind and the boat was not only relatively well balanced but making close to the wind 7.5K with an adequate heeling (my boat sails better with not too big angles of heel). I guess that with substantially more than that I will go better reefed, not to mention that if things become really nasty, say 40k or over, I would have to put the jib down to take the storm sail from a bag and mount it and I would not like to do that alone in heavy seas. I donít know lf I can do it, but would be risky.

Regarding reefs in front sails I know that the 40 class racers use them, not properly because they are easier (those guys are incredibly good sailors) but because rules limit the number of sails that they can carry, so I know that it can be done and it works.

So guys, has someone experience with any of these things and can help me with this? Was someone some bright idea?

I know, I can go to the marina and change the sails, but while cruising I stay out of marinas for 15 days and I donít to want to go to a marina each time I want to change sails, not to mention that sometimes there are no marinas near by.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-13-2012 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 10-13-2012
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Re: Lazy bag and reefs for stay sail

Come on guys, no information at all?
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Old 10-22-2012
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Re: Lazy bag and reefs for stay sail

Well, no reply and I was having doubts about the reefs on the stay sail and that kind of lazy bag but I have finally find information about it at it seems it makes sense and that some experienced sailors use them with success.

For the ones that will eventually be interested:

Cruising Sails: In Praise of the Versatile Staysail
By Carol Hasse from Hasse & Company Port Townsend Sails


I wasn’t too many miles into a voyage from Costa Rica to the Galapagos on board a Jim Brown Searunner trimaran before I’d fallen in love with our staysail. It was the handiest and most versatile of all the sails in our inventory, a breeze to tack or jibe, and quite easy to set or strike even though (and in partbecause) it wasn’t a self-tending or roller furling sail.

....It was our first line of defense in heavy weather, providing just the right
amount of sail area and maintaining the same center of effort or “leverage point” under a double reefed main as we had with the full rig. It was a trouble free sail to back-wind when we were heaving-to in moderate winds or needed a push coming about or help getting on the right tack when sailing off the anchor....

The primary role of the working staysail is that of a moderately
heavy-weather sail able to handle winds from 25-40 knots in conjunction with a deeply reefed mainsail on all points of sail....

Whether they’re free footed or on a club, staysails may have a row of reef points much like those in a traditional mainsail. A reefing staysail should have its reef row installed at an angle that elevates the reef clew above the reeftack in order to maintain the same sheet lead whether the sail is reefed or set full size. ...

A reefing staysail may eliminate the need for a storm staysail if its reefed size is small enough (without making the reef row too deep) and its construction is robust enough for Force 10 or greater winds.

Many accomplished sailors swear by reefing staysails, and just as many swear at them.

While potentially eliminating the need to change, stow, and buy an additional sail, a reefing staysail still requires a fair amount of foredeck work to reef. ...

I definitely wouldn’t want to change a roller furling working staysail for a roller furling storm staysail in the conditions that would warrant such an undertaking. If you choose a roller furling staysail, you’ll probably need
to retrofit an additional sheeting point well forward of the staysail track in order to provide a proper sheeting base for the staysail when it’s partially furled.



Regarding the idea of the lazy bag and also in what regards advantages of staysails:


from Lane Finley, a very experienced voyager who sails out of New Zealand with his wife Kaye on their beautiful classic Luders designed Annapolis 44

Furling systems create windage aloft when they are furled. When sailing offshore they would only be furled in heavy winds and this is the time to reduce windage aloft, not increase it....

The makers of furling sails suggest that headsails can be “reefed” by rolling them up part way. The reality is that doing this creates a “bag” affect with increased draft towards the aft part of the sail. And in heavy winds, you want less draft, a flatter sail. So reefing a furling sail does the opposite of what you want to achieve...

You may be thinking that you can just change your roller furling head sail, and you would be right. However, the difference between hank-on and furling sails is that in order to change a furling headsail, you must first fully unfurl it. In a rising wind that can be dangerous to the sail, the vessel and to you.

To further complicate the changing of furling sails, as you let off the halyard, your 130% genoa spills out the bottom of the furler and is loose all over the foredeck. That may present problems if you are offshore in a wild sea (which is generally when you will try to change head sails).

On the other hand, dropping a hank-on sail is fast and easy: By turning your course downwind and blanketing the headsail with the main, you can simply walk forward to the mast and release the halyard. The sail drops like a rock on the foredeck (most of the time) and is always attached by the hanks to the head stay, so it cannot fly off the foredeck.

I keep a few sail ties on the lifelines to tie up the sail if we are in comfortable weather conditions. If the weather is brewing into something more sinister, I bag the sail and then take it off the head stay, one hank at a time, and stow it in the sail locker. Then I bring out the storm jib or whatever sail I think the weather dictates. Hank-on sails allow you to always have the right sail up no matter what the conditions (as long as you have the inventory)....

We have designed special sail bags that stay on the head stay while the sail is up, with ties that fasten to the bow pulpit and help form the bottom of the bag into a big basket. All we do is roll the sail up on the deck and dump it in the “basket” and then zip the flaps over the top—simple and fast.

Dangers of Roller Furling Sails:
I have had a couple of friends lose their rigs in storms because the roller furling lines chafed through and the sail unfurled. Just a few days ago here in the marina a roller furling sail came loose in strong winds and beat itself to death before some helpful sailors from down the dock got it down.



Read the first post, I am not advocating anything I just want to solve the choice of sails on my rig. I will carry one furled sail (140%genoa) and I was thinking in having another furler for a Jib. It was the sailmaker, a good one, that point me to the disadvantages of having two furlers: not only expensive but lots of windage and difficulty in changing tacks with the big genoa. Also it will not sort out the problem of an easy deploying of a storm sail.

I started to think about what I have described on the first post. It looks that it makes sense and not only to me

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2012 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 10-23-2012
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Re: Lazy bag and reefs for stay sail

I have used reefs on a staysail. It was just a separate tack cringle and a separate clew cringle. Quite slick.
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Old 10-23-2012
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Re: Lazy bag and reefs for stay sail

argggggg ..... I lost my post.

Paulo, I was saying that I think there are valid points being made but they still end up with you up on the foredeck in plus 40 knot winds. I think that until such time as I prove myself wrong I'm sticking with a heavy staysail on an inner roller furled.
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Last edited by tdw; 10-23-2012 at 12:54 AM.
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Old 10-23-2012
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Re: Lazy bag and reefs for stay sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
argggggg ..... I lost my post.

Paulo, I was saying that I think there are valid points being made but they still end up with you up on the foredeck in plus 40 knot winds. I think that until such time as I prove myself wrong I'm sticking with a heavy staysail on an inner roller furled.
This guy had an inner roller furler with a staysail:




Nobody is carrying a storm sail one the second furler. You will want to carry the sail that is more useful to you and (depending on the boat and the size of the front sail on the furler, that I assume big) you will want a sail to put on with 18k of apparent wind, a wind that will oblige you to roll the big genoa, making it a less efficient sail.

Such a sail will be good to probably 30/35K of apparent wind and then you have roll it and start to lose efficiency. To a given point, around 50K or 60K of real wind even with a low efficiency rolled sail with incur in the risk of having everything blown away. The sail fabric was not meant to stand those winds neither the line of the furler and it will blow away (on the quoted article the guy said that several of his friends had blown the furling lines and I can tell you that on the rare occasions that I have been in 40k of wind I am always afraid that to happen. You can see that the line is thin and the tension is huge).

At a given time you will need a proper storm stay sail that is more efficient than a trysail. So what would you do? You go to the front of the boat, take down the furling sail out of the furler and put up a storm sail on the furler?

I would like to see you trying to do that providing you don't fall on the water, of course.

What those guys are saying is that it is a lot easier to do that on an hank-on sail. Much easier to take it down, much easier to put it up.

Or do you think that if you go really offshore you don't need a storm sail and that a jib on a furler is enough?

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2012 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 10-23-2012
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Re: Lazy bag and reefs for stay sail

FWIW -
I have a staysail with reefpoints on a Tayana 37, the staysail is mounted to a clubfoot, so tying in a reef doesnt involve moving the staysail fairlead car forward, etc.

I've rarely used the reef in the staysail (only) as the boat is a true cutter (mast at ~50% LOA) and the CE with staysail only flying is far aft enough to allow some decent windward performance with the staysail 'only' flying. However during the times (F9+) that I reefed the staysail, the windward performance ability reduced drastically ... the CE was now more forward when 'slab reefed'.

From these few experiences, I would deem it better to fly a purpose built storm staysail with less luff hoist but with the same approximate foot dimension as a 'normal' staysl .... to keep the CE as as far aft and as close to the mast as possible; and, obviously that long foot storm staysl would be much flatter for faster 'blade out' when needed. Id also probably opt for a 'yankee' configuration with very high clew.

Again, my boat is a true cutter with mast at ~50% LOA, so its staysail (only) has windward ability.
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Old 10-23-2012
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Re: Lazy bag and reefs for stay sail

The point question of whether you can make a "recreational" jib into a storm jib by reefing it way down is an instructive one. Thanks for the video above, it's the sloop "Rochelle" whose crew is about to be rescued by the Greek bulk carrier "Anthemis".

Easy to be an armchair admiral at my desk, but I am wondering if the crew might have ridden it out if their inner jib hadn't shredded at the clew and leech. (their main apparently shredded long before from the tatters we see above the spreaders. Good old four-ounce dacron may try but ultimately can't do the job a ten-ounce cloth storm jib can do.

With a storm jib drawing, their what, 60-degree rolling arc may have been dampened to about 30 degrees which wouldn't have beaten the crew up nearly as much nor have been as hard to control since you'd have some headway to steer with. Without it, injury and exhaustion can cause a crew to have to abandon an otherwise seaworthy boat with the rig still standing.

Not to comment personally on these particular sailors, i wasn't out there, they were, maybe there was hull damage I wouldn't know about. But the storm abated by the next day (see Anthemis' video below):


So I'm wondering if a real storm jib might have given them the margin to have made it til that next day. Thanks for the comments above and again sorry for the hijack. But my old man told me more than once, "Tom, the boat's tougher than you are"...

Last edited by nolatom; 10-23-2012 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 10-23-2012
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Re: Lazy bag and reefs for stay sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichH View Post
FWIW -
I have a staysail with reefpoints on a Tayana 37, the staysail is mounted to a clubfoot, so tying in a reef doesnt involve moving the staysail fairlead car forward, etc.

I've rarely used the reef in the staysail (only) as the boat is a true cutter (mast at ~50% LOA) and the CE with staysail only flying is far aft enough to allow some decent windward performance with the staysail 'only' flying. However during the times (F9+) that I reefed the staysail, the windward performance ability reduced drastically ... the CE was now more forward when 'slab reefed'.

From these few experiences, I would deem it better to fly a purpose built storm staysail with less luff hoist but with the same approximate foot dimension as a 'normal' staysl .... to keep the CE as as far aft and as close to the mast as possible; and, obviously that long foot storm staysl would be much flatter for faster 'blade out' when needed. Id also probably opt for a 'yankee' configuration with very high clew.

Again, my boat is a true cutter with mast at ~50% LOA, so its staysail (only) has windward ability.
You mean like this one?:



That's what I want to do

Regarding this:

"Again, my boat is a true cutter with mast at ~50% LOA, so its staysail (only) has windward ability".

Don't ask me how because I don't know enough of sailboat design to know how it is possible but on my boat, that is a sloop I can go at 30ļ of the apparent wind with only a Jib with about 34k of apparent wind and fast too (7.5K). There was not too much heel and almost no whether on the helm. So I guess that I can make at least 45k to the wind with a storm stay sail with the center a bit more forward.

I am going to try next summer, that's for sure

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2012 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 10-23-2012
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Re: Lazy bag and reefs for stay sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
This guy had an inner roller furler with a staysail:

snip
I would like to see you trying to do that providing you don't fall on the water, of course.

What those guys are saying is that it is a lot easier to do that on an hank-on sail. Much easier to take it down, much easier to put it up.

Or do you think that if you go really offshore you don't need a storm sail and that a jib on a furler is enough?

Regards

Paulo
Paulo, to be honest I am not absolutely certain as to the correct procedure. Is it a hanked on reefable staysail, a heavy duty furlable staysail, a purpose built storm jib or a storm trisail ?

Offshore I am willing to believe that a furling staysail of heavy cloth and heavily reinforced clew might just do the job up to the point where bare poles is all I am likely to be considering. The issue of chafing through sheets and furling lines is to me something that should have been considered before setting sail. Would you set off with sheets showing signs of chafe ? I doubt you would and in the instances that I have come across of furled sails unfurling in a big breeze the boats concerned have been left moored unattended for months on end. I don't doubt that on well maintained vessels equipment can and does fail but hopefully far less likely an event.

Now yes, the heavyweight staysail may not be up to comparison with a lighter sail but once the wind is heading up over 25 - 30 knots then I'm not so concerned about outright performance and above 35 - 40 then windward is not where I want to be going. One of the reasons I don't like racing. We went up the NSW coast hard on the wind with a wind that maxed out at 36knots. We did that under full staysail and partly furled main. Other than the occasional crash bang it was quite bearable but if it had been any more breeze then we would not have continued as hard on the wind. Over 50 knots ? I have never been there and sincerely hope I never do but my tactics in such weather would probably be to curl up in a tight ball and call for my mother. Hell, I might even give god a go. Most certainly I would not be concerned with windward anything.

So all I am really saying is that I don't know the full answer but personally I don't think a hanked on inner is it. Maybe it is and given that your proposed solution (as per the illustration) should be reefable from the cockpit then heck you may just have it right. RichH agrees with you it seems and he is not without experience, almost certainly more than mine.

cheers

Andrew B
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