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Buying a 30-40 year old boat - your opinions

45K views 103 replies 51 participants last post by  Mani Moana 
#1 ·
It was when, at the boat Annapolis Boat Show this year, I found myself inside the Sabre 456, an absolutely gorgeous boat and probably my favorite there, that I asked myself, "How would you feel if you owned this boat?"

Outside of being able to own a boat like that, I looked at the boat being my home on water. Surprisingly, I thought something wasn't right (outside of the fact I couldn't afford it :rolleyes:). I then realized I would need to break it in first, give it some experience, some history on the water, before I could feel comfortable on it. But when I think about the older boats I've been on, I never felt this way.

Pam Wall was staying at the same B&B as we were. We got to meet her Friday morning at breakfast. When she said you have to feel some chi with a boat before buying it, I knew what she was talking about. I couldn't feel chi with any of the new boats at the show. I guess I like older boats.

I know there are a lot of negatives about buying an older boat and that a thorough survey is a must. On maintenance and repairs, I can handle much of that. I'm an electrician and an avid woodworker. I have a pretty good mechanical aptitude. And I like the satisfaction of fixing things myself.

On my dad's boat I installed all the electronics, repaired the generator, did most of the oil changes, repaired the heads, maintained and rebuilt the pumps, sanded the entire bottom (once) and painted it, season after season. I even did some gelcoat repairs.

But it's the structural stuff that concerns me. A boat 30-40 years old, especially one that's been well sailed, could have hull or rigging problems that are only another storm away from failure. That's where my apprehension begins.

For those of you who have made the plunge and bought an older boat, what has been your experience? What are the pitfalls? What have you had to pay for and what have you been to fix yourselves? And what boats really hold up that long?
 
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#3 ·
I bought a 1985 hunter 40 a year ago. Despite a good survey there have been many items to repair. I think on older boats you should assume pretty much everything needs to be repaired/replaced/upgraded - its just a matter of prioritizing to figure out when. Given your skills, I'd say you are way ahead of the average new-old boat buyer, especially with your electrical background. From the posts I've seen here and elsewhere my impression is that any boat repair can be done yourself, if you have the time, patience and will. Including standing rigging if that's your primary concern. Of course it will probably be necessary to find a yard that can help you pull the mast with a crane if you go with anything even approaching the size of a Sabre 456. Personally I'm finding the learning process of maintenance and repair to be enjoyable and satisfying - a nice bonus on top of the sailing experience, and I don't begrudge the time. Pretty sure this is a common sentiment among owners of older boats.
 
#5 ·
Our boat will be 33 years old in February; we bought her 12 years ago. Pretty much, we bought a sturdy hull with a layout we liked, and planned to replace "everything." Because of the boat's age, her low selling price plus trucking to our then-home port, meant we could afford to do all that. It seemed our boat was built at a sweet spot of age: they knew how to work fiberglass but weren't totally convinced of its strength, so we're considerably overbuilt (1-inch-thick hull!). Heavy and slow but oh so comfy. Especially with your skills, you could do this too, and get the additional advantages of (1) being able to install *exactly* the systems you want; and (2) knowing how everything is put together, you can fix it yourself if you're out in the boonies somewhere when things go bad.

Downsides: (1) In an older boat, you won't have a hull/keel design that incorporates any advances in marine architecture over the last 30 years - maybe someone with more expertise than me can weigh in on this. Older boats tend to have full keels or modified full; how much difference in sailing characteristics will be gained by swing, bulb, or other new-shaped keels? (2) Unlike a new boat, whose value is pretty straightforward, You will *not* be able to insure an older, refurbished boat for what you have invested in it.

FWIW, there's an old Sailnet thread that touches on this topic: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruising-liveaboard-forum/61761-escaping-paradigm-300-000-a.html In it, we posted the cost of our retrofits, copied and pasted below:

We replaced "everything." Everything we put in was new, mostly purchased at Annapolis Boat Show sale prices. The refit took about 2 years and we - mostly Dan - did everything ourselves except the engine, heater, and rerigging installations (for insurance/warranty reasons). The first priority was things that make the boat safer or sail faster, then, everything else (all prices in boat bucks, a.k.a, thousands of dollars)

Yanmar engine 20
Frigoboat keel cooled refrig/freezer 2
Lofrans windlass & remote switch 3
Autohelm under deck mount autopilot 5
Webasto diesel heater 2.5
replace all standing rigging 5
arch for solar panels with integral cockpit rail 5
Brig 10' inflatable dinghy with 9.8 hp outboard 5
Cruisair reverse cycle air conditioner/heater 2.5
North Sails new mainsail & genoa 5
Force 10 stove/ oven 1.5
replace fuel tanks 2
100' chain, 200' rope and Rocna 44 anchor 1.5

Those bigger ticket items account for $60K of our refit budget. The rest of it (each item $1000 or less) went for: solar panels, bilge pump & 4000 gph "Hail Mary" pump, upholstery/paint/varnish/formica, marine-grade wire, LED lighting, cockpit cushions, trifold swim ladder, bimini, stereo, sinks and faucets, Seagull water filter, 4 AGM batteries, Xantrex Link 20, 2 Garhaur 6-part purchases for dinghy lift, handheld Garmin chartplotter, and (*winks at CruisingDad*) a BBQ.

4 months into our cruise, there is not one single thing I'd change! The solar panels make all of our power needs on sunny days; we generally run the engine about 45 minutes every 4 days to make up the difference due to occaisional cloudiness. We chose not to use a generator (too noisy) and instead use extremely energy-efficient systems, like LED lights and the keel-cooled fridge/freezer, so that we could maintain ourselves with solar. We have no watermaker, but with a 100-gal water tank for 2 people, we can go 3-4 weeks before refilling. We also chose not to install radar because our chosen cruising grounds, US southeast & Bahamas, rarely have fog and we rarely run at night, therefore less need. Disclaimer: these are our solutions, for the way we like to live, I'm not assuming they'd be right for everyone.

end quote

We strolled the boat show last weekend and nothing new and shiny engendered any boat lust at all, except the Gozzard that cost literally TEN TIMES the current appraised value of our boat. I guess we did okay. ;)
 
#6 ·
My boat was thirty when I bought her. She is now 36. Haven't regretted it for a minute. But I would make sure you start with a very solid, well-built boat (mine is an S&S Swan). But that is only the starting point. Mine had new teak decks, new wiring, relatively new rigging, etc... You don't want to take all that on unless you have limitless time and/or resources. And I'm not sure I would want to buy a boat that age with a cored hull, as it can be hard to figure out its real condition. The key is whether it was a well-built boat to begin with and whether it has been maintained. Also, take a close look at the engine because that can be a big drain. We have only had to do routine maintenance since we bought her.
 
#9 ·
Wow! Someone owns a boat that is older than my 1967 Tartan 27'.
Tartan made some boats that might be worth looking at: T 34C, T 37C.
Start looking at boats now, even if you are only just a 'looky Louie'.

Older boats seem to be the playground of the not so rich and famous. Older boats are the means by which many of us manage to get out on the water.
 
#8 ·
Some of the older boats I was looking at that I know are solid boats are Swan, Alden, Cambria, Shannon, Hinkley, S&S and Baltic. Other boats that caught my eye but I know less about their build quality are Morgan, Freedom and CSY.

I figure at best I won't be seriously in the market to buy until the house is sold and I don't see putting it on the market until spring. But since this will be a major purchase, learning all I can should start now.
 
#10 ·
Wing.."the Gozzard is mine ( smile)

Our C &C 35 hits her 30 th next year. Many newer boats re not built to the same specs...even the newer C&C. What wing said is our approach also.

Find the boat design you like, then fnd one in good condition. Wait till you have tht.

Dave
 
#13 ·
Wing.."the Gozzard is mine ( smile)

Dave
LOL, Dave. Ask them to give you a discount because of all the drool we left in that forward stateroom/salon. :laugher
 
#11 ·
I can handle much of that. I'm an electrician and an avid woodworker. I have a pretty good mechanical aptitude. And I like the satisfaction of fixing things myself.

On my dad's boat I installed all the electronics, repaired the generator, did most of the oil changes, repaired the heads, maintained and rebuilt the pumps, sanded the entire bottom (once) and painted it, season after season. I even did some gelcoat repairs.
Careful what you reveal - you could end up with a legion of stalkers comprised of recently divorced Sailnetters. ;):D

As to the new boats being soulless - absolutely right. My experience (limited) with current new boats (this millennium) is that they pretty much stay that way as well.

Same as current cars. Maybe it's as simple as them being TOO perfect.

When I'm looking & dreaming on Yachtworld I set the year filter at 2000.

Maybe I'm just getting old, but I don't think so - I absolutely LOVE GPS plotters and have no desire to have to rely solely on paper charts, hand bearing compasses, lead lines etc.
 
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#25 ·
Careful what you reveal - you could end up with a legion of stalkers comprised of recently divorced Sailnetters.
:laugher

Blame my mechanical aptitude on my dad. He was almost impossible to please and hopelessly all thumbs. I was very young when I found fixing things for him resulted in him heaping praises on me. The rest is history. :rolleyes:
 
#14 ·
We bought a 1974 Bermuda 40 2 years ago. This boat was completely refit 7 years ago including basically everything by a yard not a D.I.Y. The p.o. never recoops their investment in a sell. My advice is to do this- buy a boat that the p.o. has refit. You mentioned your an electrician and work w/wood. Older boats tend to have more brightwork, so that will keep you busy keeping her bright. Older hulls, previous to the oil crisis of '72 are generally a good bet.
You mention the CSY. my father had a 44 for about 10 years. Good, big roomy boat . Mom liked it...(don't get the walk thru)
 
#15 ·
Nothing wrong with balsa below the waterline as long as there are no intrusion already. The balsa core actually lends to the boats stiffness and structural integrity. If taken care of with the proper treatment of the thru hulls when they were bedded in your should not see any difference in moisture readings between balsa cored/ foam cored/ no cored boats. You are eliminating many fine boats here such as Tartans, Sabres etch

Our boat has end grain balsa which has been correctly handled and it gives the boat adde structure you don't find on similarly sized boats. The thru hulls are placed in areas where there is only the epoxy and the coring removed to prevent water intrusion.I my opinion this should not be a disqualifier or you will look past many fine designed and made boats

Anyplace thru hulls or equipment is placed thru laminate wether above or below the waterline a proper procedure must be followed to prevent water intrusion.

Dave
 
#20 · (Edited)
Nothing wrong with balsa below the waterline as long as there are no intrusion already. The balsa core actually lends to the boats stiffness and structural integrity. If taken care of with the proper treatment of the thru hulls when they were bedded in your should not see any difference in moisture readings between balsa cored/ foam cored/ no cored boats. You are eliminating many fine boats here such as Tartans, Sabres etch

Our boat has end grain balsa which has been correctly handled and it gives the boat adde structure you don't find on similarly sized boats. The thru hulls are placed in areas where there is only the epoxy and the coring removed to prevent water intrusion.I my opinion this should not be a disqualifier or you will look past many fine designed and made boats

Anyplace thru hulls or equipment is placed thru laminate wether above or below the waterline a proper procedure must be followed to prevent water intrusion.

Dave
That's a big if Dave and the consequences of a screw up here are, well I'll leave that to your imagination.
 
#16 ·
I have a 40 year old boat. The only original items are the monel fuel tank, mast, and boom along with the hull decks, hatches, rudder. Everything else has been updated at some point. With a sound hull and deck the rest becomes academic, right. On an older boat it's all about the care and upkeep that has been done over the years. I feel some older boats are better than new. Others are 10 years or so behind in maintenance and these would be a major commitment beyond the normal commitment of boat ownership. Boats pick you for the most part. Just like in life, make sure you can provide what it needs and it can provide what you need.
 
#17 ·
I feel some older boats are better than new. Others are 10 years or so behind in maintenance and these would be a major commitment beyond the normal commitment of boat ownership
.

I think of boat care as a list of equipment that each has it's own duty cycle. At some point each thing needs to be replaced. If you get a new boat, all the duty cycles are starting at zero. If you get a used boat, everything is at various points in the duty cycle. Assuming the boat was well cared for, you just have to pick up the process and do whatever is next.
 
#18 ·
The sabre 456 is a sweeeet Maine built boat. No doubt. But- $500k! Half million! (I am Guessing, cause they don't even give the price!). I just y-world the Sabres up, there is a 426 for $379k, 2006 model here in Charleston.

Just my opinion- spend half on a refit classic, spend the other half enjoying and maintaining her.
 
#19 ·
After almost buying a couple of vastly different not quite 30 year old boats (88 IP 31 and 89 Hunter 30)....we have decided on an 1982 Endeavour 32.

For the condition, updates made, quality of the boat (comparatively both at the time it was new and today)- we feel that we're getting a good deal and nice combination of features/safety/performance -for the period and price point we're buying in....

Are we a little concerned about it being 30 years old and potential to do some updates...? Yes, but we want to make *some* of those updates to make it ours... For others that we must do - we just do.

For us this is part of the whole experience...

We're excited as heck.
 
#22 ·
I have a '74 Cal 29 and have done an extensive rebuild/overhaul. Going into details is a topic of its own. Some general observations:

Get a good surveyor. There's wide variance. Often insurance companies and boat yards know who will make a though inspection. A diesel survey can be an expertise of its own.

Boats reach a "fully depreciated" price normally well before, probably at about the 10 year point. At that point depreciation flattens out so you don't necessarily get more value per dollar going much past that. Some specific classics may even improve after a point

I recommend avoiding boats that have big ticket needs. The need to repower, hull blisters, deck water intrusion, need to replace rigging/sails. Get a boat where that's already been done.

The best value in an older boat is where the previous owner's put in a lot of TLC. You never get out of a boat any near what you put in. That's not the point in doing it. Some older boats have been greatly improved by owners over the production boat and that can be a great value to you if the improvements match features that you want. this is particularly true of performance designs. They are great to sail but need considerable improvements for sustained cruising.

ABYC boat standards have changed. For example I ended up rewiring much of my boat because the original work was just to a lower standard and that showed.

If you like carpentry, a stick built interior is easier to work with than a molded interior

Don't count on electronics having much value after about 7 years. You'll probably find yourself making replacements.

Check the web for class information. Boats invariably have an problem the develops with age. It can be a costly one if you have to fix it. On the Cal 29 its the beam that absorbs mast compression. Anyway you can check for it and see if its been corrected.
 
#24 ·
That's a big if Dave and the consequences of a screw up here are, well I'll leave that to your imagination.- flybynight
That's not a big if. It's easily determined by a moisture meter and good surveyor. You eliminate many good cored boats and boat models with a sweeping generalization about not buying a cored boat below the waterline. The only way this can happen is if thru hulls are inserted improperly. Easily tested with a meter.

So I guess you have elimated Najad and Halberg Rasseys two of he finest made boats from your list as both are dynacell cored.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill. Just check to make sure the boat your are buying in particular doesn't have moisture intrusion. Eliminating cored boats just on that basis eliminates many boats or no reason.
 
#29 ·
One of the respected authors on brightwork is a woman: Rebecca Whitman. Brightwork: The Art of Finishing Wood: Rebecca Wittman: 9780071579810: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ei8mZOoBL.@@AMEPARAM@@51Ei8mZOoBL
You can always learn.

Actually she is kind of a varnish maven and makes finishing with a varnish seem quite difficult. I gave up on varnish and gave in to the Cetol Natural Teak dark side as it is much easier to keep looking good. Goes on more like a paint and a lot less ju-ju needed for it turn out right.

Maybe I'm not that crazy about doing brightwork either!
 
#30 ·
Julie, you mention the price of the Sabre and here you hit the proverbial nail on the head. Our 30 year old Bristol is a solid bluewater cruiser with a decent turn of speed for its age and purpose. For interest sake, I looked at Annapolis for a similar purposed and size (length and displacement) and the closest I could find was an IP around 46 feet (forget the exact model). It was something like $800k which is close to 4x what we have in Ainia. There is no comparison of the two boats for appearance or performance. I could say easy choice, but there really was no choice. In reality it was not a Bristol 45.5 compared to an IP 46 (size), it was the Bristol vs something like a new Catalina in the low to mid 30s (price).
 
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#31 ·
You Bristol is a fine boat. The 45.5 and the 41.1 are on my short list as well as a Mason 43/44. The IP never made it as i doesnt sail as well and I also like the fit and finish of both the Bristols and the Masons, Catalinas never crossed my mind for our last boat. Not bashing them, just not what we wanted syle wise.

Dave
 
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#32 ·
I am new to boats and sailing. A year ago I never set foot on a sailboat. My wife and I bought a 37 year old Schock Santana 30. Its been AMAZING. Overbuilt. THICK fiberglass. Its got a smaller main than most modern boats and gets alot of power from its headsail...So I have to reef alot less in bigger winds. In light winds she is still pretty quick for an old boat. Its stable, fast, easy to sail and I can single hand her with ease. Its been VERY well kept up and in the first year of ownership I have done very little other than sail. I bought a new (used) headsail, and recently replaced a bilge pump...and replaced a battery. Thats all the repairs I have done. An older boat thats well cared for is not bad at all. I also drive a 1976 BMW...so I have a soft spot for the classics! The wife? Not so much...lol. She drives a 2013 Audi and loves the new Beneteaus!
 
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