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post #71 of 77 Old 10-20-2012
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Re: Critique This Cockpit

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Originally Posted by billyruffn View Post
Put a dodger / bimini on it and it might be hard to move around. Also, IMHO, too much wood to look after.
They do love their teak decks in Europe. It's optional on virtually all the boats built there.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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post #72 of 77 Old 10-20-2012
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Re: Critique This Cockpit

Jon E .... my biggest criticism of the Jeanneau cockpit is the length of the thing and i've never been a fan of raising the cockpit simply to shoehorn a double bed in underneath.
Shorten the thing by bringing the coachroof aft to that first step down, lower it overall so that as you say you step up onto the deck then its gets very close to receiving a tick from me.

Must say though that I am not a fan of those "cat's eye" windows. Purely personal opinion, just don't like the look of them. Perhaps that's me being shocked by the new.

Ref teak decks .... I'd never order a teak deck on a new boat though I'd be happy to pay to have the cockpit teaked. What does amaze me however is the appalling quality of the teak decks on modern production boats. If that is the best they can do then I'd rather not thank you very much.

btw ... i was critical of Hanse cockpits in a previous but looking at their latest with the fold up platform they are really pretty good. Shame about the Ikea down below.

Andrew B

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post #73 of 77 Old 10-21-2012
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Re: Critique This Cockpit

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Originally Posted by tdw View Post
Jon E .... my biggest criticism of the Jeanneau cockpit is the length of the thing and i've never been a fan of raising the cockpit simply to shoehorn a double bed in underneath.
Shorten the thing by bringing the coachroof aft to that first step down, lower it overall so that as you say you step up onto the deck then its gets very close to receiving a tick from me.

Must say though that I am not a fan of those "cat's eye" windows. Purely personal opinion, just don't like the look of them. Perhaps that's me being shocked by the new.

Ref teak decks .... I'd never order a teak deck on a new boat though I'd be happy to pay to have the cockpit teaked. What does amaze me however is the appalling quality of the teak decks on modern production boats. If that is the best they can do then I'd rather not thank you very much.

btw ... i was critical of Hanse cockpits in a previous but looking at their latest with the fold up platform they are really pretty good. Shame about the Ikea down below.
Hi Andrews,

Builders do the boats people want. I agree with you that putting sailors up, further away from the boat CG is a bad idea in what regards sea motion and comfort if the things get nasty but if they don't do that they will mot be able to get the high for those beautiful master bedrooms. Anyway most of the guys that buy those boats are very unlikely to sail on tough weather. I am not saying the boat cannot take it, in fact I am sure the boat can take more than most sailors can handle, it will just be more uncomfortable.

Anyway, as you know we cannot blame jeanneau because they offer, for the ones that take that in consideration a line of boats with lower cockpits, boats that have not that master cabin but will be more comfortable in rough weather.

But regarding that it is very funny that I see people complaining about the more uncomfortable sea motion of deck saloons but I don't see people complaining about the worse sea motion in center cockpit boats, the other way to have a big master's bedroom. They too put sailors away from CG. They have some advantages because sailors are more on the center of the boat and that will make pitching movements a bit better than on a DS but regarding lateral movements (the worse for comfort) it is just the same.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-21-2012 at 07:38 AM.
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post #74 of 77 Old 10-21-2012
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Re: Critique This Cockpit

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But regarding that it is very funny that I see people complaining about the more uncomfortable sea motion of deck saloons but I don't see people complaining about the worse sea motion in center cockpit boats, the other way to have a big master's bedroom. They too put sailors away from CG. They have some advantages because sailors are more on the center of the boat and that will make pitching movements a bit better than on a DS but regarding lateral movements (the worse for comfort) it is just the same.

Regards

Paulo
Well, I'll complain about center cockpits, if you'd like... (grin) You're right, of course, the increased elevation above the water will exaggerate the motion and discomfort from rolling, and in my view often compromise security and safety... There's a pretty good reason we're only seeing flybridge cockpits/helms on multihulls, at least for the time being...



I've mentioned it before, but as sharp and sexy as those twin wheels can be aboard many of today's broad-beamed boats that carry their beam all the way aft, they have the downside of placing the helmsman in the most exposed position, subject to the most motion at one of the corners of the floating triangle... In fact, the only worse place for the helm on such a boat, at least in purely geometric terms and the consequences thereof, would be right up at the bow... (grin)
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post #75 of 77 Old 10-21-2012
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Re: Critique This Cockpit

I invite every one to do a 3 day passage in the cockpit of my soverel 28 and then go back and critique that cockpit again!

" Some are boat wise and some are other wise"

Last edited by Capt.aaron; 10-21-2012 at 12:10 PM.
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post #76 of 77 Old 10-21-2012
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Re: Critique This Cockpit

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...
I've mentioned it before, but as sharp and sexy as those twin wheels can be aboard many of today's broad-beamed boats that carry their beam all the way aft, they have the downside of placing the helmsman in the most exposed position, subject to the most motion at one of the corners of the floating triangle... In fact, the only worse place for the helm on such a boat, at least in purely geometric terms and the consequences thereof, would be right up at the bow... (grin)
Well, I agree. There is a trade off for everything and the best designers are not stupid and those beamy large transom boats boats did not born in a design board of some crazy designer. They have born along many years of design adapting solo racing boats to the needs of solo sailing and the biggest need of a solo sailor is an easy boat. Because most cruising boats are practically solo sailed what has been learned on those boats have been slowly incorporated in the design of cruising boats, many times by the same designers.

You are absolutely right regarding movement. Of course you don't have to be there to steer the boat but that is the most logical place since it is where you can see better where you are going, even if most cruisers actually use the autopilot (with a hand held command) and sail from the middle of the cockpit.

The advantages of that type of shape for cruisers are many (and that's why it is a major trend in modern cruising boats): The boat is a much more stable platform, it sails at max efficiency with very little heel (17% against the 30% of a narrow boat) and roll a lot less and that is specially important when sailing downwind.

The disadvantages are a lesser and more uncomfortable performance on upwind sailing (most of the cruisers when they want to go against the wind use the engine) and as you say more movement if you sail the boat from one of the corners of the transom.

Regarding the two wheels they offer the important and additional advantage to be able move much easily and safely forward to reach the winches, or to come back from the cockpit to the wheel if needed (with the boat is on autopilot).

I know that you have said:

" I've always thought the ergonomics of the bigger J-Boats cockpits was very good, but on CIELITA, there's no way to get behind the wheel without stepping up onto the deck momentarily, then back down into the cockpit again... Not good for a boat going offshore, but apparently Ned felt the tradeoff for the oversized wheel was worth it..."


But that trade off is an important one and it is the possibility of sailing the boat comfortably from the lateral side and that's a must for all that like to take the wheel for a long time, specially if the boat goes upwind heeled: It is just the best place.

Everything is a trade off in boat design and you have to pick your choice accordingly with your sailing needs but have no doubt, boats like the new Hanse, Benetwau, Bavaria or Jeanneau are adapted to the needs of most sailors, otherwise they would not all be following the same general trend. They all want to sail many sailboats and to do that they have ti adapt their boats for the needs of most sailors.

I prefer other type of boats but then I don't do what most cruisers do with their sailboats and I bet that is also your case even if I am also sure that what is appropriated for you is not for me

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-21-2012 at 03:02 PM.
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post #77 of 77 Old 10-21-2012
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Re: Critique This Cockpit

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hi Andrews,

Builders do the boats people want. I agree with you that putting sailors up, further away from the boat CG is a bad idea in what regards sea motion and comfort if the things get nasty but if they don't do that they will mot be able to get the high for those beautiful master bedrooms. Anyway most of the guys that buy those boats are very unlikely to sail on tough weather. I am not saying the boat cannot take it, in fact I am sure the boat can take more than most sailors can handle, it will just be more uncomfortable.

Anyway, as you know we cannot blame jeanneau because they offer, for the ones that take that in consideration a line of boats with lower cockpits, boats that have not that master cabin but will be more comfortable in rough weather.

But regarding that it is very funny that I see people complaining about the more uncomfortable sea motion of deck saloons but I don't see people complaining about the worse sea motion in center cockpit boats, the other way to have a big master's bedroom. They too put sailors away from CG. They have some advantages because sailors are more on the center of the boat and that will make pitching movements a bit better than on a DS but regarding lateral movements (the worse for comfort) it is just the same.

Regards

Paulo
The popularity of centre cockpits is surely down to the same reason as the popularity of raised aft cockpits and that is the bed issue. I can well appreciate why a person would prefer a full size easily accessed vaguely rectangular bed over a v-berth but in the back of my fuzzy wee head is a little voice yelling "it's a small sailing boat for FFS .... ".

Lets face it we do carry about the silliest trifles when it comes to what we want in a boat. I confess that I like a boat that pushs the V-berth a bit aft giving plenty of width at the head to enable sleeping head forward. Indeed it gives the advantage of sleeping closer to anchor chain and while the occasional rumble may disturb one's rest I'd rather have made a couple of circuits of the deck in the middle of the night to satisfy myself re drag than not hear anything at all.

Apart from all that, five minutes spent on deck looking up at the stars is worth waking up for and it is interesting overall that we spend so little time (mea culpa, mea culpa, ) discussing decent sea berths and the rigging of lee clothes. Perhaps that is best kept for another thread ? Coming right up.

Andrew B

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