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  #11  
Old 10-17-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

I don't understand why people are so emotional about the boat they own and what other people's boat should be.

If I am going to buy a XY&Z sailboat, I certainly will not brag about how good is my boat. With my luck, everyone is going to buy a XY&Z. I can't image sailing down to BVI, the big pond is full of XY&Z floating around. It will ruin my day big time.

It is a curse to have followers.

Hey, YMMV
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  #12  
Old 10-17-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The funny thing is that many of the guys that buy old boats that once were seaworthy boats like to piss guys that buy brand new boats about the seaworthiness of their new boats
Regards
Paulo
That is a good one. It is so true.
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I read, I think, and I act independently; I don't come here to win a popular contest on Sailnet, nor I am here for hookup. I come here to learn, be challenged and be inspired in the art of sailing the big Ponds. I am NOT afraid of drowning in the sea, but I am afraid of dying in a nursing home and burdening those who I love.
I am old school. Integrity is to do the right thing even when no one is watching.
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  #13  
Old 10-17-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

Hey, I'm quite happy with my old boat.. but then she's only 62, so I guess that's not REALLY old.

Now, where's that tin of varnish gone??
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  #14  
Old 10-17-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

Mine just turned 43 this year. She had the rigging changed in 2000 and a new Yanmar a few years back. She's very solid and probably over built by today's standards. We've bought her for a song (she was basic and had not had any modifications done), and we built her out as we wished. Now she is ready for the south Pacific. We ended up with a lot less in her than if we would have bought a new boat or something already built out, and because we did all the work building her out, we know her inside out.

Anyone buying a sailboat should have her surveyed, talked to everyone they can about it, then learn all they can about reworking a boat themselves. Then go over the boat yourself with a fine toothed comb, remembering that anything you find will cost you your time and money.

Great deals on sturdy old boats are to be had, but buyer beware. Scam artists are all over the place.
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  #15  
Old 10-18-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAULCR1 View Post
I just got finished reading a blurb by a surveyor that stated that only a 3 - 10 yr old sailboats should be purchased. Not newer, not older. The reasoning being that any manufacturing problems will show up in a new boat within 3 years and after 10 years the inherent age problems may become exponentially cost prohibitive.
In the immortal words of Norman Schwarzkopf - That's a lot of bovine scatology.
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I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken, opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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  #16  
Old 10-18-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
In the immortalwords of Norman Schwarzkopf - That's a lot of bovine scatology.
The guy is making a generic statement and globally I agree with it. Of course he should have said the best time to buy a boat is between 3 and 10 years of age and not that "not should be purchased newer or older".

There are exceptions on both sides. If you are going to buy a new boat and the shipyard has already made 10 or 15 boats probably all small problems that always appear in a new design had already been found and sort it out.

There are also older boats that have owners that make a proper maintenance to the boat but there are very few of them. If you read the threads about maintenance you will found out that almost everybody founds that changing the ringing after 10 years and the chain-plates after 15 years is an exaggeration and that means that almost nobody is doing it on their boats.

The guys that really make a very expensive maintenance on the boat will not want to sell it or will only sell it when it needs more expensive maintenance again. Of course there are exceptions but they are very rare and the chances is that you will be a normal old boat and not one of those rarities.

On a 10 year old boat there are a lot of trouble and expenses that are approaching. Probably the boat has not a new rigging, needs a sail-drive seal, needs new sails, the rubber seals need changing everywhere, in some short years it will need to change chain-plates, need new electronics, the engine has probably 3000 hours and will need an expensive overall and there are lots of electric equipment that will last about 10 years and will have to be changed. Lots of work, lots of things that will start to fail and lots of money, trouble and time to be spent in a boat.

Regarding the best time to buy an used boat I would say between 2 and 6 years old. that way even with a 6 years old boat the chances are that you will enjoy the boat trouble free for some years. The best deal would be on a boat with few years that has been substituted for a new model.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-18-2012 at 06:48 AM.
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  #17  
Old 10-18-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

Lets just say that you buy a 4 year old boat for say 70% of the original cost of the boat when new. I'll use a figure of 400K new so your purchase price is now $280K. Your all happy for say 8 more years when you start to see things that need replacing, sails rigging electronics etc...... Your choice now is to maintain her, live with her as is or to sell her. If you sell her, you're now looking at a sales price of maybe 50% of new or $200K if you're lucky. This is an 80K loss.

Now let's look at an older boat that has already reached that 50% depreciation that needs some work, say 200K. You put into her your sweat equity plus, say $40K. You sail her for 8 or 10 years like the above scenario, sell her for the original purchase price less you 40K investment in her.............
You're at a 40K loss but you also didn't pay as much for the original purchase and you learned a lot about boat repair along the way

The choice is yours but I'll keep my 35 year old boat that I could sell her for more than I paid......of course I would lose all the $$ I put into her. This is what we pay for being happy along the way
Tom
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  #18  
Old 10-18-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

You are making the right choice - you only suffer a loss in value if you sell.

Instead, view the recommendations of those trying to sell you something with a healthy dose of skepticism. Of course, a rigger believes you should change your standing rigging every 10 years, whether it needs it or not. The yard wants to "fix" your blisters for a cost of one quarter the value of your boat. Naturally, your life depends upon buying and installing all the new gear to run all your lines aft to the cockpit (Heaven forbid if you should have to move your fat arse up off the cockpit seat). If you don't have or buy what "everyone" else has, your boat is deemed inadequate.

Total B.S. Look the link is to an article written by someone with no apparent qualifications, other than he has sailed a lot, who uses an anecdote to prove his point. It's nonsense. This is the kind of crap that poses as a learned article in the marine marketing world.

How about some quantative analysis? Show me some broad research results. So you have sailed quite a bit, how does that qualify you to give me your opinion on material science and cost/benefit analysis?

In any other field, experts need to have the demonstrated experience, licensing, certifications, and education to justify their opinions in that particular area alone. The opinion must be based on scientific research and study, not a story.
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Old 10-18-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Instead, view the recommendations of those trying to sell you something with a healthy dose of skepticism. Of course, a rigger believes you should change your standing rigging every 10 years, whether it needs it or not. The yard wants to "fix" your blisters for a cost of one quarter the value of your boat. Naturally, your life depends upon buying and installing all the new gear to run all your lines aft to the cockpit (Heaven forbid if you should have to move your fat arse up off the cockpit seat). If you don't have or buy what "everyone" else has, your boat is deemed inadequate.

Total B.S. Look the link is to an article written by someone with no apparent qualifications, other than he has sailed a lot, who uses an anecdote to prove his point. It's nonsense. This is the kind of crap that poses as a learned article in the marine marketing world.
Exactly... Such anecdotal examples so often only serve to highlight the ignorance or naivete' of many of the Dreamers who embark on such projects... One thing jumps out at me from that article:

Quote:

As he and his wife lived on the boat they realized that she really was not a very good cruising boat. The interior, designed for a big crew, was awkward for just two. Ditto the deck layout and cockpit. They met other cruisers in more modern purpose built cruising boats and envied them.
I've seen this time and again, boggles the mind how people persist in glossing over potentially detrimental aspects of boats they fall in love with, until it's too late... Had an acquaintance who lusted after an Albin Nimbus 42 at a rock bottom price a few years ago. Beautiful boats, no doubt about it, but right from the start I cautioned him about the early Swan-style companionway - the equivalent of a steep ladder into a basement - tried to warn him how quickly that might grow old, how problematic it was for fitting a dodger, how insecure his wife might feel dealing with the boat's high bridgedeck, and so on... But he wouldn't be deterred, and forged ahead with the deal, and what turned into a project of epic proportions. Two years later, they finally got away for a 2 week cruise, after which they concluded the boat was all wrong for them - the deal breaker/final straw, of course, was the ergonomics of the companionway and deck/cockpit...

This is why my first recommendation in discussions here is so often the books DESIRABLE AND UNDESIRABLE CHARACTERISTICS OF OFFSHORE YACHTS, and SENSIBLE CRUISING: THE THOREAU APPROACH. They really help prioritize what features are important in a cruising boat...

I see the same thing with cruisers fitting out new boats, as well. Every fall, the southbound migration down the East coast features many boats fitted out to the hilt with the latest and greatest crap that the glossy cruising rags have convinced many that they "need" to go cruising in comfort... Not too long, of course, before it becomes apparent that much of this stuff can be easily done without, and more importantly, so often leads to doing less sailing, and more motoring...

Sailing or cruising with whatever you happen to have for awhile, would seem to lead to making more informed choices about The Dream Boat on down the line, but many folks today don't seem to want to bother with such a progression, and the gradual accumulation of knowledge from experience regarding what works, and what doesn't...

Couldn't help but notice this bit of nonsense from that article, as well:

Quote:

And most of that great gear he got when he bought the boat was now obsolete and/or broken. So Bob re-equipped the boat with the best: all new electronics, windlass (she had never had one), anchors, batteries, up to date charging system, and on and on the list went.
How is my 15 year old Garmin 48 handheld GPS, which I still pack in my bag on every delivery I make, "obsolete"? People like Bob, who apparently view something like a Bruce anchor, or a decade-old VHF as "obsolete", are probably the last ones who should be looked to for guidance on the economics of Good Old Boats vs. New...
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  #20  
Old 10-18-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

separate the fly poop from the pepper, and find your dream boat, doesntmatter how old she is...my formosa was born in taiwan in 1976. she has been thru a lot--but anything that has to go thru a lot more should have proof of the capability. this is a solid boat..her hullis thick and NOT CORED, and her decks are solid--with only a slim core of 1/8 ply inside fiberglass.... her rig is good , masts without cracking or rot....water pretty much stays outside her hull--only water in is spozed tocome in....
i love the looks of the older designs. the newer ones look all the same to me--totally without character.
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