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  #21  
Old 10-18-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ehmanta View Post
Lets just say that you buy a 4 year old boat for say 70% of the original cost of the boat when new. I'll use a figure of 400K new so your purchase price is now $280K. Your all happy for say 8 more years when you start to see things that need replacing, sails rigging electronics etc...... Your choice now is to maintain her, live with her as is or to sell her. If you sell her, you're now looking at a sales price of maybe 50% of new or $200K if you're lucky. This is an 80K loss.

Now let's look at an older boat that has already reached that 50% depreciation that needs some work, say 200K. You put into her your sweat equity plus, say $40K. You sail her for 8 or 10 years like the above scenario, sell her for the original purchase price less you 40K investment in her.............
You're at a 40K loss but you also didn't pay as much for the original purchase and you learned a lot about boat repair along the way

...
Tom
That has to do as you value your own time. For older guys that have a limited number of years ahead time is invaluable. I don't want to mess around for years with and old boat before I sail it. I want to sail it right now and enjoy sailing. I like sailing not repairing old boats. Besides if the boat is more than 15 years old even if I substitute a lot of things, there are other things, mostly electric that will continue to fail over time (pumps, refrigeration engine, lights, and many other parts that have a limited time span). I don't want to pass the time making repairs, I want to sail and enjoy life.


Regarding your numbers 50% depreciation is a bit vague and I was talking about years not depreciation. It is perfectly possible to buy a 5 year's old boat with a 50% depreciation on price. A 10 year old boat will not be much cheaper, I mean if you look well at the market.

Cheap are really old boats with more than 20 or 25 years old. For putting of those in the same seaworthiness and reliability state of a 5 years old boat, you retain the hull, if you are lucky and the boar has not osmosis or a high humidity level and you change all the rest. For a 40ft you will spend a lot more than what you said, maybe the double, work on it for years (without sailing) and in the end you have a boat that will not value on the market the original price plus what you have spend on it, never mind the thousands of work hours you spend on it (that was Bob experience and it was a high quality newer boat that had passed with flying colors a surveyor inspection).

Ok, it can be the only alternative if one has not the money and that way he can earn more money along the years and spend it on the boat but in what regards investment it is worse than if you buy a newer boat.

Of course than means nothing if you are going to retain the boat for the rest of your life (and it can be the only way someone can have a boat) or if you buy a boat to live in it and only sail locally and be careful about the weather (that way you maintain the boat in the original state till it broke) but that is not what we are talking about.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 10-18-2012 at 12:58 PM.
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  #22  
Old 10-18-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

ok, here ye go--i bought my cruising boat-i am actively cruising , right now, for 10,000 usd. it is a formosa 41. her masts are excellent, her rig new, before i bought her- she was equipped with whatever nav stuff anyone wants , except no forward seeking sonar. decks solid, hull sound. engine blown to wholly schwartzes.....some interior work necessary, minor--doors broken, hinges bent; had no shelves in the cabinets. drawers missing with fronts nailed--yes nailed--into the TEAK interior wood... SOOOOOOOOOO
10kusd put into th eboat.
2500 usd engine--installation--3 loaves of bread, traded instead for a near year of me cruising inhis boat in gulf of mexico....
replaced wet rotted deck backing plate---was 750 overcharge, so i paid total of 1000 dollars for that work...
packed 1 packing glands--one rudder, one propshaft
replaced mast boots and wedges X2
placed compression post under mizzen
resealed everything on the decks
installed manual windlass
installed new chain x 194 ft, 5/16
installed 30 kg bruce, as primary anchor--now i have 4 or 5 anchors, all will find uses....
re-arranged batteries and storage layout
replaced 2 chainplates and have spares for the rest
removed, repaired, replaced my mizzen spreaders and bracket.
repaired jib(375usd) for sacrificial restitching, and clew hardware tab repairs
oh yes--acquired spares --alternator and antenna tuner(gifts) and found some tarping for cheap in a marine swapmeet in mazatlan....
more , as well....oh yes--found 3 bp solar panels, 3 amp each per hour, for 50 dollars.....with mppt controller...
another cqr for 50 dollars, 45 pound....
spare pumpsx3 for fresh water(20 usd)
more.....even had multiple emergencies with engine on way down here..

for a total of 5000usd of materials and work....makes my investment 15000usd for a formosa 41 that is currently cruising......(some billed and being paid off)

i began cruising a year and a half ago in this boat. i am repairing that which needs repair as i go. i am improving that which screams out for improvement, as i go. is a lot less pricey than sitting in a marina or mooring in usa waiting for something that is not going to happen.

AND MY BOAT HAS CHARACTER. which is a lot more than i can say for many 200,000usd boat purchases.....not slamming-but THEY ALL LOOK THE SAME!!!!!!! mine doesnt look like yours. i am happy... is seaworthy, and works well.

as for this balderdash---"Cheap are really old boats with more than 20 or 25 years old. For putting of those in the same seaworthiness and reliability state of a 5 years old boat, you retain the hull, if you are lucky and the boar as not osmosis or a high humidity level and you change all the rest. For a 40ft you will spend a lot more than what you said, maybe the double, work on it for years (without sailing) and in the end you have a boat that will not value on the market the original price plus what you have spend on it, never mind the thousands of work hours you spend on it (that was Bob experience and it was a high quality newer boat that had passed with flying colors a surveyor inspection)."
--FORGET IT. you will be surprised what is out in the market now fro cheap pricing....ignoring a boat because it is X or XX yrs of age is the most ignorant thing i ever heard--and destroying something already built and strong?? get real, guys--aint the way to do it.
blanket statements and extremes are used by those not aware of the situation. by the way--i surveyed my own boat before purchase, and i was a lot more thorough than most surveyors i ever met, except one. some boats just have no deal breakers....cannot say that with modern boats.
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Last edited by zeehag; 10-18-2012 at 11:15 AM.
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  #23  
Old 10-18-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
...

AND MY BOAT HAS CHARACTER. which is a lot more than i can say for many 200,000usd boat purchases.....not slamming-but THEY ALL LOOK THE SAME!!!!!!! mine doesnt look like yours. i am happy... is seaworthy, and works well.

as for this balderdash---"Cheap are really old boats with more than 20 or 25 years old. For putting of those in the same seaworthiness and reliability state of a 5 years old boat, you retain the hull, if you are lucky and the boar as not osmosis or a high humidity level and you change all the rest. For a 40ft you will spend a lot more than what you said, maybe the double, work on it for years (without sailing) and in the end you have a boat that will not value on the market the original price plus what you have spend on it, never mind the thousands of work hours you spend on it (that was Bob experience and it was a high quality newer boat that had passed with flying colors a surveyor inspection)."

--FORGET IT. you will be surprised what is out in the market now fro cheap pricing....ignoring a boat because it is X or XX yrs of age is the most ignorant thing i ever heard--and destroying something already built and strong?? get real, guys--aint the way to do it.
blanket statements and extremes are used by those not aware of the situation. by the way--i surveyed my own boat before purchase, and i was a lot more thorough than most surveyors i ever met, except one. some boats just have no deal breakers....cannot say that with modern boats.
Yes, the old talk: Old boats are good new boats are a piece of ****

I don't agree with you.

Jeff has posted extensively about that and he is a guy that know what he is talking about. I agree with what he says about the subject.

Regards

Paulo
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Old 10-18-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Regarding your numbers 50% depreciation is a bit vague and I was talking about years not depreciation. It is perfectly possible to buy a 5 year's old boat with a 50% depreciation on price. A 10 year old boat will not be much cheaper, I mean if you look well at the market.

Paulo
Obviously, I was throwing out hypothetical numbers using an average of what I have experience over the last twenty years or so of boat ownership and renovation. All situations will be different without a doubt. my point was that if you want to save a little and add some sweat equity, you can save some money, but it will cost you time........your choice, everyone has choices...............
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Old 10-18-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

I like new boats, too. Many of them are very nice, along with being very expensive. I agree with you PCP and Jeff H. that some of the new boats have taken advantage of advances in material science, computer design and technology, and are superior to older boats in almost every way.

The original question was whether it was cost effective to own an older boat, given that a surveyor had written that one should never buy a boat older than 10 years. The answer to that question is a resounding YES, based on the experiences of a majority of the members of this listserv (who according to a survey on this listserv, own such older boats).

I understand your position - that if you can afford it, and you are willing to spend the money, and you want to maximize your time sailing rather than working on the boat, then new or nearly new is the way to go.

Unfortunately, we sailors read a constant barrage of buy, buy, buy and spend, spend, spend messages from folks who attempt to give their message the appearance of scientific validity, when in fact it is simply marketing B.S. Or, they attempt to wrap their message in some kind of emotional appeal or fear. "How could you possible sail offshore without an XYZ? Our experts have declared that to be unsafe." "You will never tag the bimbo in the bikini on the bimbo pad unless you buy a new ABC!"

If you want to convince me that an older boat is not cost-effective, at least base it on an analysis of objective third party information. How about analyzing cost and depreciation according to NADA values or some other data, factoring in mean yard costs for likely repairs and their frequency vs. DIY material costs for the same repairs and the estimated time necessary to complete repairs and maintenance, instead of telling me a story about one couple?
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Last edited by jameswilson29; 10-18-2012 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 10-18-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

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Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
I like new boats, too. Many of them are very nice, along with being very expensive. I agree with you PCP and Jeff H. that some of the new boats have taken advantage of advances in material science, computer design and technology, and are superior to older boats in almost every way.
Just be VERY aware of new technologies pushing the structural boundaries. For example, Tartan was one of the first production boat manufacturers to switch to epoxy hulls. Their first generation epoxy hulls had some issues that they had to figure out, which they did eventually, but that topic is now taboo here on SN
My point is that new technology has not been field tested over time and sometimes this can be an issue. Thinner hulls flex more without question. Because of this movement, there can be bonding issues. You need to be careful with the cutting edge.............Me, I like tried and true.
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Old 10-18-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

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Originally Posted by ehmanta View Post
Just be VERY aware of new technologies pushing the structural boundaries. For example, Tartan was one of the first production boat manufacturers to switch to epoxy hulls. Their first generation epoxy hulls had some issues that they had to figure out, which they did eventually, but that topic is now taboo here on SN
My point is that new technology has not been field tested over time and sometimes this can be an issue. Thinner hulls flex more without question. Because of this movement, there can be bonding issues. You need to be careful with the cutting edge.............Me, I like tried and true.
Epoxy and cored hulls are not new technologies are around for ten's of years and are very reliable and proved technologies.

I agree with you in what regards the cutting edge technologies but those are tried in racing boats for years, on the worst conditions, before being applied to cruising boats.

Regarding fiberglass, old boats and old techniques, Jeff know more about it than me and he wrote, in another Forum (6 years ago), a remarkable post about the subject. As it is a public Forum I think it is ok to post it here, since it is relevant for what we are discussing:

"I would not think that a well- constructed fiberglass has a life span per se. Neither concrete nor fiberglass truly breaks down or loses strength simply on their own without other factors coming into play. They require other causes. In the case of fiberglass loss of strength can result from one or more of the following:

-The surface resins will UV degrade.
-Prolonged saturation with water will affect the byproducts formed in the hardening process turning some into acids. These acids can break down the bond between the glass reinforcing and the resin.
-Fiberglass is prone to fatigue in areas repetitively loaded and unloaded at the point where it is repetitively deflected. High load concentration areas such as at bulkheads, hull/deck joints and keel joints are particularly prone.
-Salts suspended in water will move through some of the larger capillaries within the matrix. Salts have larger molecules than water. At some point these salts cannot move further and are deposited as the water keeps moving toward an area with lower moisture content. Once dried these salt turn into a crystalline form and exert great pressure on the adjacent matrix.
-Poor construction techniques with poorly handled cloth, poorly mixed or over accelerated resins, and poor resin to fiber ratios were very typical in early fiberglass boats. These weaker areas can be actually subjected to higher unit stresses which are the result from being much heavier boats. It’s not all that unusual to see small spider cracking and/or small fractures in early glass boats.
-Of course beyond the simple fiberglass degradation there is core deterioration, and the deterioration of such things as the plywood bulkheads and flats that form a part of the boat’s structure.

Earlier boats had heavier hulls for a lot of reasons beyond the myth that designers did not know how strong fiberglass was. Designers knew exactly how strong the fiberglass of that era actually was. What they did not know was how to design around fiberglass's inherent weaknesses. To explain, the US government had spent a fortune developing fiberglass information during WWII and by the early 1950’s designers had easy access to the design characteristics of fiberglass. (Carl Alberg, for example, was working for the US Government designing F.G. composite items when he designed the Triton and Alberg 35) The reason that the hulls on the early boats were as thick as they were had more to do with the early approach to the design of fiberglass boats and the limitations of the materials and handling methods used in early fiberglass boats. Early designers and builders had hoped to use fiberglass as a monocoque structure using an absolute minimal amount (if any) framing which they felt occupied otherwise usable interior space.

On its own, fiberglass laminate does not develop much stiffness (by which I mean resistance to flexure) and it is very dense. If you try to create the kind of stiffness in fiberglass that designers had experienced in wooden boats, it takes a whole lot of thickness which in turn means a whole lot of weight. Early fiberglass boat designers tried to simply use the skin of the boat for stiffness with wide spread supports from bulkheads and bunk flats. This lead to incredibly heavy boats and boats that were still comparably flexible compared to earlier wooden boats or more modern designs. (In early designs that were built in both wood and fiberglass, the wooden boats typically weighed the same as the fiberglass boats but were stiffer, stronger, and had higher ballast ratios)

The large amount of flexure in these old boats was a real problem over the life of the boat. Fiberglass hates to be flexed. Fiberglass is a highly fatigue prone material and over time it looses strength through flexing cycles. A flexible boat may have plenty of reserve strength when new but over time through flexure fiberglass loses this reserve. There are really several things that determine the overall strength of the hull itself. In simple terms it is the strength of the unsupported hull panel itself (by 'panel' I mean the area of the hull or deck between supporting structures), the size of the unsupported panel, the connections to supporting structures and the strength of the supporting structures. These early boats had huge panel sizes compared to those seen as appropriate today and the connections were often lightly done.

This fatigue issue is not a minor one. In a study performed by the marine insurance industry looking at the high cost of claims made on older boats relative to newer boats and actually doing destructive testing on actual portions of older hulls, it was found that many of these earlier boats have suffered a significant loss of ductility and impact resistance. This problem is especially prevalent in heavier uncored boats constructed even as late as the 1980's before internal structural framing systems became the norm. The study noted that boats built during the early years of boat building tended to use a lot more resin accelerators than are used today. Boat builders would bulk up the matrix with resin rich laminations (approaching 50/50 ratios rather than the idea 30/70), and typically used proportionately high ratios of non-directional fabrics (mat or chopped glass) in order to achieve a desired hull thickness. Resin rich laminates and non-directional materials have been shown to reduce impact resistance and to further increase the tendency towards fatigue. The absence of internal framing means that there is greater flexure in these older boats and that this flexure increases fatigue further. Apparently, there are an increasing number of marine insurance underwriters refusing to insure older boats because of these issues.

I have been looking at a lot of older fiberglass boats in the past few years. One thing that has struck me is the sheer amount of noticeable flexure cracking in areas of high stress, such as bulkheads, chainplate attachment points, hull to deck joints, cabin to deck lines, engine beds and rudder posts, and other high load hardware positions.

There are probably other forms of hull degradation that I have not mentioned but I think that the real end of the life of a boat is going to be economic. In other words the cost to maintain and repair an old boat will get to be far beyond what it is worth in the marketplace. I would guess this was the end of more wooden boats than rot. I can give you a bit of an example from land structures. When I was doing my thesis in college, I came across a government statistic, which if I remember it correctly suggested that in the years between 1948 and 1973 more houses had been built in America than in all of history before that time. In another study these houses were estimated to have a useful life span of 35 years or so. As an architect today I see a lot of thirty five year old houses that need new bathrooms, kitchens, heating systems, modern insulation, floor finishes, etc. But beyond the physical problems of these houses, tastes have changes so that today these houses in perfect shape still has proportionately small market value. With such a small market value it often does not make sense from a resale point of view to rebuild and these houses are therefore often sold for little more than land value. At some level, this drives me crazy, since we are tearing down perfectly solid structures that 35 years ago was perfectly adequate for the people who built it, but today does not meet the “modern” standards.

The same thing happens in boats. You may find a boat that has a perfectly sound hull. Perhaps it needs sails, standing and running rigging, a bit of galley updating, some minor electronics, a bit of rewiring, new plumbing, upholstery, a little deck core work, an engine rebuild, or for the big spender, replacement. Pretty soon you can buy a much newer boat with all relatively new gear for less than you’d have in the old girl. Its not hard for an old boat to suddenly be worth more as salvage than as a boat. A couple years ago a couple friends of mine were given a Rainbow in reasonable shape. She just needed sails and they wanted a newer auxiliary, but even buying everything used the boat was worth a lot less than the cost of the “new” parts. When they couldn’t afford the slip fees, the Rainbow was disposed of. She now graces a landfill and the cast iron keel was sold for scrap for more than they could sell the whole boat for.

Then there is the issue of maintainable vs. durable/low maintenance design concepts. Wooden boats for example represent the difference between a maintainable construction method versus a low maintenance/ durable method. A wooden boat can be rebuilt for a nearly infinite period of time until it becomes a sailing equivalent of ‘George Washington’s axe’ (as in “that’s George Washington’s axe. It’s had a few new handles and a few new heads but that is still George Washington’s axe”.) The main structure of a fiberglass hull is reasonably durable and low maintenance but once it has begun to lose strength, there is nothing that you can do.

The best deals on older used boats are the ones that someone has lovingly restored, upgraded, and maintained. Over the years they have poured lots of money and lavished lots of time into maintaining the boat in reasonably up to date condition. No matter how much they have spent the boat will never be worth anything near what they have in it because there is a real ceiling to how much an older boat will ever be worth and they will often have several times that ceiling invested.

And finally if you buy an old fiberglass boat, paint the bilges white. It does nothing for the boat, but if you ever have to sell the boat, then someone may look in your bilge and say “Lets buy her because any owner who would love a boat so much that he went through the trouble to paint the bilge white must have enjoyed this boat and taken great care of her no matter what her age.”

Good Luck,
Jeff"


Regards

Paulo
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Old 10-18-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

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Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
I like new boats, too. Many of them are very nice, along with being very expensive. I agree with you PCP and Jeff H. that some of the new boats have taken advantage of advances in material science, computer design and technology, and are superior to older boats in almost every way.
I like new boat if I can afford it especially If we plan to keep it for a long time. What can I say, I like the new boat smell, big cockpit, less wood more plastic, big head and clean slick white shower stall, Bimbo pad for my models to relax on.
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Old 10-18-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Yes, the old talk: Old boats are good new boats are a piece of ****

I don't agree with you.

Jeff has posted extensively about that and he is a guy that know what he is talking about. I agree with what he says about the subject.

Regards

Paulo
is nice to know you interpret the written words to your own meanings--lol--aint that way,boy. the fact s that the newer boats ALL LOOK JUST THE SAME. like tract homes. like modern cars-no imagination. no creativity. they ALL LOOK JUST THE SAME.
older boats do not ALL look just the same. you can find character in an older boat you cannot find in a newer one. doesnt make the newer ones BAD, as you insist--lol--get a lil less rigidity in your thought--or are you in a little box on a hillside and you all look just like your neighbors ,and your cars all look just the same, you and everyone all look just the same--what a boring life....people looking like hteir dogs that look like their kids that look like their cars that look like their boats that look all alike--BORING.
the older designs were made for reasons. so are the newer ones--therefore--there is something for everyone, even the folks who have to have exactly what the neighbors have. if you like same as your friends, go for it--if you like older lines and designs, go for it--dont bad anyone for their choice, as you are doing with my words ....
twisting meanings never brought truth.
there is more than one expert on this subject...and every one has RIGHT to believe whomever they wish, which doesnt make other opinions and other facts wrong. learn and learn well.
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Last edited by zeehag; 10-18-2012 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 10-18-2012
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Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

Looks like this is going the way of 'full vs fin'..

Recreational boating/sailing took off in the 70s and 80s. Many (most) of the boats built in that era are still around, most still functional and sound. Sailing is not reserved for the wealthy, nor should it be, and so many buyers have limited budgets. Having decent old boats available is a boon for that set of buyers/sailors.

New can be an even worse 'investment', but for those with the means one gets 'modern' (if that's your taste), the latest thinking in design, shine and glitz and not having someone else's leftovers/issues/problems.

As one of those with limited means, sailing a near-30 year old boat, of course I'm going to rationalize my 'good old boat' to a degree, and when we're talking dreamland it's easy to be supercritical. I guess the answer to how you really feel is to ask yourself.. you're sailing an olden golden, and some philanthropist offers you a brand new Jeanneau 409 c/w moorage.. financial considerations aside, would you take it?

If you can honestly say no thanks, I stay with what I have then I guess there's your answer. I'd have to think I'd say 'thanks' and live with my nitpicking niggles about the 'new' boat....
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