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  #21  
Old 10-19-2012
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Re: Staysail vs Mast Furling Main

I'm thinking PaulK makes a good point re blanketing.

Also, thinking further re weather helm .... with either very heavily furled or reefed main the centre of effort would I guess be getting pretty close to mid point (fore and aft) so maybe excessive WH is not going to be an issue.

Regarding potential failure of furling system (main) that in itself might make it advisable to have a trisail available for, if nothing else, a backup. interesting thought.

As for in mast furler ... sorry , somewhat off topic, I'm pretty much, almost, kind of, maybe just maybe, a convert. Having lived with IMF for the past year and a bit,one thing I note in its favour ; the ease of part furling seems to make me furl/reef earlier whereas I have been often guilty of avoiding the trip to the mast to conventionally reef.
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Last edited by tdw; 10-21-2012 at 05:10 PM.
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  #22  
Old 10-19-2012
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Re: Staysail vs Mast Furling Main

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
I'm thinking PaulK makes a good point re blanketing.

Also, thinking further re weather helm .... with either very heavily furled or reefed main the centre of effort would I guess be getting pretty close to mid point (fore and aft) so maybe excessive WH is not going to be an issue.

Regarding potential failure of furling system (main) that in itself might make it advisable to have a trisail available for, if nothing else, a backup. interesting thought.

As for in mast furler ... sorry , somewhat off topic, I'm pretty much, almost, kind of, maybe just maybe, a convert. Having lived with IMF for the past year and a bit,one thing I note in its favour ; the ease of part furling seems to make me furl/reef earlier whereas I have been often guilty of avoiding the trip to the mast to conventionally reef.
1. I am just thinking out loud. During the high seas, a bit more weather helm would be a good thing right? to slow the boat down.

2. I agree, trysail is good to have regardless.

3. I had a bad experience with the mast furling once. It failed to furl back in the mast. I really do not want to revisit that again.
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Last edited by tdw; 10-21-2012 at 05:10 PM.
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  #23  
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Re: Staysail vs Mast Furling Main

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Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
1. I am just thinking out loud. During the high seas, a bit more weather helm would be a good thing right? to slow the boat down.

2. I agree, trysail is good to have regardless.

3. I had a bad experience with the mast furling once. It failed to furl back in the mast. I really do not want to revisit that again.
.... a bit probably yes but I'm thinking a lot would not be nice and under main alone that could be a worry. Otoh as i mentioned the reefed sail would minimise that.

.... I've had a sail slide jam in the track and had to go up the mast to free the damn thing. That was not pretty. Could have been prevented with effective maintenance. I wonder whether many/some problems with in mast furlers can be put down to the same thing.
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  #24  
Old 10-21-2012
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Re: Staysail vs Mast Furling Main

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
..
what else are you going to put up in an honest 40 knots? Have you been out in 40 knots? At that point it becomes about controlling the heading of the boat. I'm not sure a small, storm staysail that pulls the center of pressure forward would not be the better sail.
But who carries a storm staysail? I have been out in 60 knots+ and I survived with a regular staysail and a double reef in the main. It wasn't fun but it worked.

In full disclosure I have never had a storm trysail up in my life. I don't think I know anyone who has. I know a lot of very experienced sailors.
Hi Bob,

Can you give me some advise on this?

You talk about carrying a regular staysail and a double reefed main in +60k of wind. Certainly it was an heavy sailboat. Modern light sailboats will not be able (or need) to carry that amount of sail in bad weather, not even on lighter conditions and will do well with less sail. Take a look at these guys with 46K of wind:





On my boat this summer I made some experiences to see how well my boat (8T 41ft) sailed only with a jib close to the wind with some strong wind. The boat sailed with 34K apparent wind at 7.5K to 30º of the apparent wind and to my surprise with a light helm and little rudder. The heel was not much, but then my boat likes to sail with only 20º of heel. I am sure I could take more without reducing the sail, but would be more efficient to reduce sail if the wind increased much.

The question is, would not my boat, and most modern boats, do well in storm conditions only with a stay storm sail?

I ask that not only because what I have observed on my boat but because most of modern masts are not equipped with the second rail for the storm trysail and I don't think it is a question of costs (my previous boat, an inexpensive Bavaria 36 had the second rail) but more of a tendency. I mean the trysail is much more difficult to deploy by a solo sailor than a storm sail in a removable stay. That is the standard set up with most modern light boast are equipped (I mean those that are prepared for offshore work).

I would be very interested to know your opinion about this.

Regards

Paulo
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Old 10-29-2012
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Re: Staysail vs Mast Furling Main

Guys, your opinion on this please:



These are boats that are going to race the Pantaenius-Rund-Skagen-Regatta a race on the North Sea, between Germany and Ireland. That is an offshore race that has the possibility to get some nasty weather so all racers have to deploy and show the storm sails to the organization.

As you can see many boats have the trysail without been set on a mast rail (probably they don't have a rail for the main and one for the storm sail).

The question: Does that works that way? As someone use or saw one used like that?

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Paulo
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Old 11-01-2012
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Re: Staysail vs Mast Furling Main

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The question is, would not my boat, and most modern boats, do well in storm conditions only with a stay storm sail?
Since you are so performance oriented, you must know the answer to this question. Clearly, running only a headsail is not nearly as efficient nor as fast as running both the head sail and a main.

You must know the hull drag is considerably higher running only the head sail as the only part of the hull resisting leway movement is the bow. This causes the boat to point more to wind to balance the huge headsail forces.

On the other hand, running both sails moves the sail forces further back allowing the boat to point closer to the direction it is actually traveling resulting in less drag and more speed.

The reason sailors only run headsails is pretty much lazyness and it is a no-brainer way to run a boat in high winds. Most any boat is COMFORTABLE (god forfid) running only a headsail in spite of lower performance. The simple reason is that it does not require any significant headsail trim to get reasonable speeds. Doesn't matter big, small, heavy, light, modern, old..
Bryce

Last edited by BryceGTX; 11-01-2012 at 09:36 PM.
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  #27  
Old 08-17-2013
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Re: Staysail vs Mast Furling Main

Ok, so you’ve weighed up all the pros/cons and decided to go for in-mast furling with vertical battens and electric winches on your new boat (in our case, a 60 year old couple, a Bavaria Vision 46).

So, suppose the weather unexpectedly starts to get bad and you are 18 hours from a safe port. You have furled the main 50% and the genoa 70%, but the wind/seas are getting worse so you decide to completely furl the genoa and furl the main further – but the in-mast jams or there is some other type of gear failure which prevents furling or unfurling the main (so that you could lower).

Realize that this is a highly unlikely scenario unless you have done something unwise, but let’s put that aside and just accept it has happened.

What do you do?
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  #28  
Old 08-17-2013
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Re: Staysail vs Mast Furling Main

More common then you think. The average folk is gonna let it flog to death. Otherwise maybe run off if they have sea room and conditions warrant.. If they were smart they'd heave too, let the weather blow itself out, get some rest and take a look at things when conditions improve. Failing that these folks will be on the horn for the nearest ship to take them off.
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Old 08-17-2013
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Re: Staysail vs Mast Furling Main

Thanks. Agree heaving to would be best, issue is whether boat will heave to with whatever % main you are stuck with and with a little genoa. Might have to forereach, but then there is the "how long can you do it" issue with a couple. Only ordered our boat, but figuring out heaving to with it will be one of the key tasks once we do. Have read that modern boats are difficult to heave to, anyone with experience on how to which might be at least somewhat generalisable?
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Old 08-17-2013
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Re: Staysail vs Mast Furling Main

Lots of talk on it. But the only way your going to figure it out is to practice, practice, practice on your own boat. Not real difficult once you get the hang of it, and maybe the most important sailing skill you will ever develop.

My avatar picture is the morning after a real shitty night. Running off on a trysail and staysail, broken boom on deck, sewing up the foot of the jib...
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Last edited by aeventyr60; 08-17-2013 at 07:48 PM. Reason: more info
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