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  #11  
Old 10-22-2012
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Re: Doyle "StackPack", Quantum version or other?

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingwelshman View Post
I'm thinking of adding a stack pack - I currently do not have a lazy jack system.

What is it about stack packs that you don't like?
I can't speak for JackDale, but I agree with him about the stack packs in general. I've been crew on three offshore deliveries and a few other shorter hops on boats that had them and I'm not a fan.

It seemed like every single time we had to reef or strike the main, dealing with the stack pack was a pain. To get the sail settled into the pack, one had to stand on mast steps or winches so you could get high enough above the top of the stack pack to stuff the sail in. Not fun in any sort of conditions where you might actually have to shorten or strike your main. Similar problem in working the zipper across the top of the pack.

I just don't see the great advantage with these. Maybe for a small daysailor in protected water, but for any larger cruising boat, I think they create more problems than they solve.

What I use is a design for retractable lazy jacks that I found online several years ago, before I even had Argyle. Basically it's a simple system of lines, that are sized and connected such that it acts as a lazy jack system when deployed, but when retracted the lines all go taught against the boom and mast. There is a cheek-block up high and a pair of cam cleats near the goosneck on each side of the mast. The different sections of line are interconnected with rings and attached to the boom with eye-straps.

To set my main I take the sail cover off, raise the lazy jacks and then take all of the sail ties off the main. If I can't raise the main directly up wind for some reason, I can always lower the lazy jacks, let the sail spill on to the deck and raise it normally. Another advantage to a retractable system is that you don't need to put holes and extra zippers in your sail cover.

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  #12  
Old 10-22-2012
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Re: Doyle "StackPack", Quantum version or other?

Thanks Argyle & Jack. Guess I got some ponderin' to do....
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  #13  
Old 10-22-2012
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Re: Doyle "StackPack", Quantum version or other?

I think it comes down to what type of sailing you do. If you primarily do multi-day offshore sailing I wouldn't recommend a stack pack. If you daysail, or cruise and anchor most nights I think they're perfect. All the regular main covers I've had were a pain to deal with in one way or another and having lazy jacks make them even more of a pain. Unlike Jack and Argyle I have encountered no problems with raising, lowering or reefing the main with the stack pack. We have three reefs and full battens in our main and it's no more difficult to raise than with lazy jacks, you get used to it. If I need to drop the main in a hurry I just drop it into the bag and tidy up later, nothing could be easier. I leave the halyard attached when anchoring and I know I can have the main up faster with just having to unzip the zipper than if I had 4-5 sail ties to undo. Maybe my experience has been different but I can't find anything negative to say about them for the type of sailing we do.
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  #14  
Old 10-22-2012
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Re: Doyle "StackPack", Quantum version or other?

I have a Doyle StackPak and have not experienced the problems other's seem to have. I also have the Strong Track. When dropping the Main it goes all the way down until there isn't enough weight on the halyard to pull it down any further (maybe a foot). After lowering, I make my way forward, pulling back on the flakes as I go and pulling up the zipper until I reach the mast and pull down the last little bit of sail and pull the zipper closed. Reefing is easy as well.

The only time I have a problem is if it's quite windy and I don't bother to adjust the lazy jack lines before heading out. Usually I don't bother with them, but if properly installed, it's not that hard to.

I have to admit that I was quite fortunate in having a Doyle loft in the area who did the complete installation of the sail, strong track and lazy jacks as part of the deal. Only thing I'd take over it would be In-Boom furling.
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  #15  
Old 10-22-2012
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Re: Doyle "StackPack", Quantum version or other?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PBzeer View Post
Only thing I'd take over it would be In-Boom furling.

Been there, done that, didn't like it.
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  #16  
Old 10-23-2012
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Re: Doyle "StackPack", Quantum version or other?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
I like a balanced boat; the first sail to go up the main. It is also the last to come down.
So does a sail cover/stack pack change this? And how is a boat balanced with just a main up? Also there are far more compelling reasons for pulling the main down first and leaving a headsail up to last. If they are not known, I can help you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
The sail cover comes off the dock and goes back on at the dock. The main halyard goes on at the dock and comes off when back at the dock. That is prudent seamanship.
This is of course OK when you're headed for the dock each day but when you're out cruising, the sail will often be covered for extended periods while you're at anchor. With a stack pack the halyard can stay on and opening the zipper to hoist the main takes moments - the sail goes up in less than minute. If a sailor waits until that is too short a time then he is plain and simple not paying attention.

FWIW I have Doyle Stakpac with Harken batcars and I wouldn't change it for any other system. Just my personal experience.
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  #17  
Old 10-23-2012
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Re: Doyle "StackPack", Quantum version or other?

Quote:
I think it comes down to what type of sailing you do. If you primarily do multi-day offshore sailing I wouldn't recommend a stack pack. If you daysail, or cruise and anchor most nights I think they're perfect. All the regular main covers I've had were a pain to deal with in one way or another and having lazy jacks make them even more of a pain-jrd222
Thats why we use the EZ Jack. no modifications needed to the sail cover at all. Only deployed when you are lowering the sail otherwise its along the lower boom and mast. They can also be deployed for the cockpit so no need to go on dck.

Some of my friends with the Stack Packs have noted the following problems.


Increased sailing around at anchor due to the extra height of the material when the sail is
down and covered
Some of their booms are high so it has been difficult for them to reach the zipper to close
the pack
Some of them report that they have long booms extending over their dodger and bimini
and have a hard time reachimng the zipper to close them
Extra fabric at the foot of the sail flapping around
Chafe from the stack packs lazy jacks runbbing the sail as they are always deployed like
regular lazy jacks vs EZ Jacks.
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  #18  
Old 10-23-2012
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Re: Doyle "StackPack", Quantum version or other?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Some of their booms are high so it has been difficult for them to reach the zipper to close the pack

Some of them report that they have long booms extending over their dodger and bimini and have a hard time reaching the zipper to close them
Both these zipper problems are easy solved by a small turn block at the mast and another at the end of the boom with a continuous line connected to the zipper pull tab. That way the zipper can be opened or closed effortlessly from either end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Extra fabric at the foot of the sail flapping around
Not sure I understand this - if the cords supporting the stack pack are correctly tensioned there is no flapping canvas - at least not on mine. The stack pack has two solid fibre rods along the top edges to keep the bag "stiff"

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Chafe from the stack packs lazy jacks rubbing the sail as they are always deployed like regular lazy jacks vs EZ Jacks.
As above. The cords don't really move at all relative to the sail once everything is set up and if the leeward cords are slightly loose they don't chafe the sail. They need in any case to be freed up slightly to prevent poor sail shape.

The one thing that I won't deny is that the bag being continually up does effect the set of (and air flow over) the main ever so slightly and if I were racing I may have a different opinion. The disadvantage I suffer from loss of boat speed while "cruising" is really insignificant.

I'm not trying to convert anyone, just saying.
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  #19  
Old 10-23-2012
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Re: Doyle "StackPack", Quantum version or other?

Just reporting what friends with the stack packs have mentioned as their problems.

I have seen them sail around in the anchorage a little more than most of the other boats myself.'

That being said they are easier to pack your sail up for the day.

Dave
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  #20  
Old 10-23-2012
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Re: Doyle "StackPack", Quantum version or other?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Just reporting what friends with the stack packs have mentioned as their problems.

I have seen them sail around in the anchorage a little more than most of the other boats myself.'

Dave
I haven't noticed that with my stackpack.

And it makes no sense to me. Since the center of effort of the additional surface is behind the mast, it should _decrease_ the tendency to sail at anchor, not increase it.

There is a reason you rig the anchor riding sail as far aft as possible...
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