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  #81  
Old 11-20-2012
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Re: can I afford to continue sailing

Here is the #1 Rule of Living: There Will Never Be Enough Money.

I don't care who you are or how much money you have. If you're filthy rich, you'll fret about needing a bigger jet than the rock star next door. There is never enough money.

If you give up your boat it will be easy to fritter away the $110 a month you spend on dock fees. What, exactly, does yuur wife think she needs the $110 for? Is it really important enough for you to give up your boat? It may indeed be, but be sure!

I would start a budget tracking spreadsheet and account for every penny. Every last penny. You can find $110 a month. Some ideas: give up meat. Stop getting the paper. Get a cheaper cell phone or get rid of your land line. Cancel the cable. Ride your bicycle to work every day. No more eating out. Get rid of the 2nd car.

One of the most important things you will teach your children is how to amuse themselves constructively. I have heard it said that addicts are a 1-trick pony, in that they don't know how else to soothe or entertain themselves. How many life skills can you learn from a boat? Navigation & seamanship. Radios. Angling. Repair skills. Self confidence. Camaraderie and teamwork. Camping. Really, you can't have a better family pass time than a boat.

And you have to have your own space. You cannot be attached at the hip to your spouse. You both need to have SOME time on your own and come back with a cheerful attitude and a smile on your faces.

A trailer isn't the answer. You have launch fees, and salt water wrecks the brakes no matter how well you wash them out. For a trailerable size boat, it isn't any cheaper than moorage.

Your heart's in the right place to even be considering giving up your boat. If you do decide it's more trouble than it's worth, you can always take up crewing. That's a lot of fun too. Good luck.
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  #82  
Old 11-21-2012
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Re: can I afford to continue sailing

Wow! cmbrossa.... great post. So true. Especially the part about teaching your kids to amuse themselves - in other words, to enjoy life instead of pinching pennies for a smart phone. Because you are so right, they money will get spent, it will go.....
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  #83  
Old 11-21-2012
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Re: can I afford to continue sailing

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Originally Posted by Sal Paradise View Post
Wow! cmbrossa.... great post. So true. Especially the part about teaching your kids to amuse themselves - in other words, to enjoy life instead of pinching pennies for a smart phone. Because you are so right, they money will get spent, it will go.....
Or if we don't spend it, the tax man will take it.
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  #84  
Old 11-21-2012
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Re: can I afford to continue sailing

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Or if we don't spend it, the tax man will take it.
Unfortunately, there is some true to that.

I met with Alan Greenspan once, who said that America became the most prosperous nation in the world because we protected personal property rights better than anywhere else. If you earned it, you kept it and our government would not dream of taking it away. That caused people to invest, take risk, hire people and bring capital and innovation from other countries to the US.

While one can argue for an income tax, there comes a point when it is just taking from anothers effort. However, spend it or they will take it is clear in estate tax and is highly feared in retirement savings. Congressional fangs are out when they see the amount of deferred taxes in our cummulative 401k savings and the drool is spreading. When section 401k of the IRS code was first written in the 1970s, they had no intention of it becoming what it is today. Almost everyone had a regular pension back then, from companies that paid taxes. They were simply trying to supplement the idea that Social Security was not going to keep up. Yes, its been kicked down the road this far.

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  #85  
Old 11-21-2012
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Re: can I afford to continue sailing

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Unfortunately, there is some true to that.

I met with Alan Greenspan once, who said that America became the most prosperous nation in the world because we protected personal property rights better than anywhere else. If you earned it, you kept it and our government would not dream of taking it away. That caused people to invest, take risk, hire people and bring capital and innovation from other countries to the US.

While one can argue for an income tax, there comes a point when it is just taking from anothers effort. However, spend it or they will take it is clear in estate tax and is highly feared in retirement savings. Congressional fangs are out when they see the amount of deferred taxes in our cummulative 401k savings and the drool is spreading. When section 401k of the IRS code was first written in the 1970s, they had no intention of it becoming what it is today. Almost everyone had a regular pension back then, from companies that paid taxes. They were simply trying to supplement the idea that Social Security was not going to keep up. Yes, its been kicked down the road this far.

Off soap box.
Yes you are totally right.

With a large percentage of US citizens (maybe we should also include illegal imigrants) with no retirement savings, no pension, no 401k, and with Social Security going insolvent, where can we get the money to support these people in their retirement (or when for health reasons they are no longer able to work)?

Answer: The 401 k accounts for those that have saved and not bought the luxury house, the new car every 3 years, the latest style of clothes, the latest computer and I phone, not eaten out all the time, nor gone on pricey vacations.

Last edited by casey1999; 11-21-2012 at 03:04 PM.
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  #86  
Old 11-21-2012
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Talking Re: can I afford to continue sailing

After years of dreaming of owning a sailboat and much to the chagrin of my wife I bought a Gale Force 20, nice little boat with a cuddy cabin that was a blast to sail and overnight on, though she would never stay on it with me. The wife hated it but tolerated it because she saw the joy I got from it. The economy went down the tubes, my wife's business started to suffer so I sold the boat and gave her the money, which unfortunately did not prevent the collapse but only prolonged it of her coffee shop. Fast forward six months later I start looking through boat ads and discussing them with her and out of the blue she says "make sure the next one is bigger than the 20. I look around and find a Catalina 22 that needs work but shows a lot of promise and buy her. I spend three months retrofitting the interior, ask her to pick fabric for cushion covers, curtains, etc. She goes with to buy stove, cookware, all other items necessary to overnight and starts to get into it, but the thing that really changed her mind was one day we were sailing and I went below to get her a glass of wine and gave her the helm and instead of coming right back I sat in the companionway for 30 minutes or so and talked her through navigating across the lake, since that day she's been all for the boat, overnights and loves the meals we cook, and more importantly she discusses what features she would like on our next boat.
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  #87  
Old 11-21-2012
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Re: can I afford to continue sailing

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Originally Posted by CatMan22 View Post
....out of the blue she says "make sure the next one is bigger than the 20....
Very cool . I had a somewhat similar experience, I had similar sized boat, and I told my wife I wanted to get another, a larger one, or "maybe a smaller one that she could sail herself to learn on". She rather crossly replied "Well I'm not going to sail it if you get it." I took that as permission/demand (and agreement) to get a larger one, and we have both been happy ever since. She especially likes the galley where she has a sink with (foot pump) running water, and an alcohol stove where she can happily cook steaks, bacon and eggs, coffee and tea etc. The small fridge/freezer is the icing that allows us to stay out for as long as we want (and the beer to be ice cold).

By the way, I do trailer it, and usually can launch for free. After salt water submerging the trailer in a fresh water lake is a good idea.
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  #88  
Old 11-22-2012
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Re: can I afford to continue sailing

Wow... what a thread...

Topics: finances, relationships, child-raising, politics... a nice potpourri of some serious topics, and it's not just any one of them at issue here, but a strange blending of all of them.

There have been some great relationship tidbits and financial recommendations. I'll second any comment that says to reduce overall expenses (lots of families have $200/month cable/internet bills and another $200/month cell phone... plus huge heating/AC bills because they keep the house 5 degrees warmer/cooler than it needs to be for the season). Bottom line, there are a lot of ways to save money besides getting rid of stuff that you really really enjoy.

My main thought (as someone with three kids): you need to make memories with them. My kids LOVE the boat and I love the fact that they do! I can't wait till some day they can crew totally alone and I'll kick back and watch them. I'm already proud of them for that moment and it hasn't even happened yet. They'll have their entire lives to think back to the times with dad on the boat... the sun, the picnic lunches, the overnights, floating around the water in life jackets, fishing, grilling... Hell, I know I'll be thinking about it all till the day I die.

I remember when I was young our family fishing trips up to Ontario... It amazes me how often I think about those trips... one or two weeks out of the year can make more memories than all the other months combined.

Take pictures... lots and lots of pictures... put them on facebook... print them out, frame them, and hang them on the walls in your house. When your wife sees all the smiles and good times and hears the kids begging to go out again next weekend, for the sake of the family and kids, I hope she decides to be part of it.

If the kids want to spend time with their dad on the boat then I think that's something to bear in mind. The cost of boat ownership is hard to justify financially, but the time with the kids aboard and the memories you'll all have are priceless.
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  #89  
Old 11-22-2012
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Re: can I afford to continue sailing

This just came back to me-

Every year while my kids were growing up we spent a full week boat camping on Lake George. My wife grudgingly went along with it because of the out houses but it was the best. Sleeping in a big tent, star gazing on the boat out in the middle of the lake, cooking over fire. I have many memories. The one that comes back to me now is one hot sunny day my youngest boy and I motored over to the ranger office on another island andgot ice cream cones. The sky was blue, the water was like silk and we sat on benches watching the boats coming and going and eating ice cream.

A big Sea Ray came in and we helped the guy tie up. He looked at us for a minute and he looked at our $3000 boat . His boat was easily 100 grand. He sat down with us and we chatted. He looked at my little boy happily eating his ice cream cone. He said you know family is the only real wealth. He asked about my family and I told him my other two sons and my wife were on the next island over. He said, you can get more money anytime, but the kind of wealth I had right then was the best. I never forgot that.

Last edited by Sal Paradise; 11-22-2012 at 12:08 PM.
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  #90  
Old 11-22-2012
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Re: can I afford to continue sailing

Looking for relationship advice on a sailing forum is like asking your marriage counselor what boat you should buy.

In other words there are really really good reasons why many of us here are on our second, and hopefully last wives.

I would like to hear your wife's side of the story, as it is very unfair to her for any of us to offer an opinion when we only get half the debate.
Are you maybe blowing off other commitments to go sailing? Are you not communicating, leaving your wife to wonder where the hell you are? Are you hanging out on the dock and drinking with your boat buddies and then calling her to come drive you home? Did you promise to do things like paint the trim, mulch the garden, build a playhouse for the kids and then blow it off to go sailing?

I understand the need for a slip.
$1300 a year buys you a clubhouse. drysailing doesn't. For some of us, a large portion of sailing is the dockside camaraderie. Go for a sail, return to dock, gather and share a meal, a drink, a sunset, some laughs, some ideas, some sweat when projects need to be done. Sailors often don't work or play well with others- that is why we enjoy the solitary sport of sailing. Many of us are not social types, except when others with similar interests are involved- hence the sanity-maintaining necessity of just hanging around the dock some days. Some of us are Lost Boys, and Lost Boys will always need a Wendy to keep them from getting too self-absorbed.

Don't dump on your Wendy. Don't resent her. Find out what she really needs and wants from you.

In other words, talk to her, not to us.
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