HMS Bounty in trouble...

[JulieMor]

Originally Posted by chef2sail

If the TSC was so worried about the Bounty and now it has sunk and is gone and they are so united about the ship, surely there will be no repercussions about speaking frankly about what SPECIFICALLY was wrong on the Bounty.

Unless there is a fear of being a whistle blower and/or opening up a can of worms.

[Brewgyver]

Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife

There's an interesting point. Because the Judge and the Jury in law cases are always people who do not know the person on trial. And they only have to go on what they are given in that trial.
(snippage)

Here's another interesting point: Anybody who posted in this thread would be disqualified from sitting on the Jury, if either counsel (defense or prosecution) were doing their job. In addition to that, many of the people who post on Sailnet and other sites, who clearly have a great deal of practical knowledge about sailing and seamanship, would most likely be excluded. They WANT jurors who don't have a great deal of personal knowledge and/or experience in the key matters of the case being tried.

[Brewgyver]

Originally Posted by PCP

He said that he had turned it out for maintenance. Why the hell do you think he have stropped a generator in the middle of a storm to make maintenance except it the thing needed it urgently otherwise it would blow apart?

Paulo, that would definitely NOT be called "maintenance." The ONLY reason to stop an operating generator in such circumstances would be to effect and EMERGENCY REPAIR. I'm not quibbbling about semantics - no engineer worth the name would do that, and then call it "maintenance".

[PCP]

Originally Posted by Brewgyver

Paulo, that would definitely NOT be called "maintenance." The ONLY reason to stop an operating generator in such circumstances would be to effect and EMERGENCY REPAIR. I'm not quibbbling about semantics - no engineer worth the name would do that, and then call it "maintenance".

The guy is not an engineerit is an handy man.

Regards

Paulo

[sparklepl3nty]

I have to work and sleep a little! Don't worry, I will try to continue to post and be as honest as I can. Thanks for your kinds words, too.

Originally Posted by chef2sail

Since you spent so much time in MD on the Pride, Do you know the captain of the tall ship Witchcraft stationed in Pasadena Maryland? What kind of classification would that boat be in terms of tall ships. What kind of liscencing would he need?

I am not familiar with Witchcraft or her owner, so I Googled her. (theyachtwitchcraft.com) To be honest, she's kind of in an odd position.. I personally would describe her as classic boat or yacht. "Tall Ship" to most people are traditional sailing ships, but more in the pre-1900s style than anything else, with stepped masts. Classic boats can fall into that category, but it becomes fuzzy. (I hoped I didn't offend anyone here. I love classic wooden boats, and have had the pleasure of sailing on a few). The website doesn't mention any charter sailing, or taking any passengers out, so really, the owner/captain doesn't need any licensing. (Now, I do wish more states would require boaters to go through some sort of safety class. Florida has only just implemented one, but the older boaters do not have to legally take the class, and frankly, FT Myers has some god-awful boaters. But that's another discussion.)

Originally Posted by chef2sail

This is a question I have kept asking. Sorry, but I need more clarity from you about your answer. I understand the blacklisting/ mutiny thing, but now since the Captain is being accused by some of deriliction all along ( we all pretty much agree about his responsibility in the leaving of port to sail into sandy), why are there still no stories or posts from others as to previous instances. Surely there are forum like this one, where your anononimity would be protected and you could air your concerns. maybe had you since you carefully talk around them and others had air concerns about this vessel and crew they would have been looked at more closely.

The TSC in all reality is a loose group of vessels. While we may see each other at Tall Ship Festivals (each summer, a group of TallShips sail between ports on the East Coast, West Coast, or the Great Lakes, and there is often a "reunion" of sorts for crews), or reunite with a former crewmember on another ship, there really isn't one main "forum," if you will. Facebook *has* changed a lot of that, though many folks don't either have internet access or desire to join Facebook or similar websites. I myself didn't know this was here until a week or so ago. (Though I think I've floated through the forums when trying to find info/opinions on tools, etc, in the past.) I think we do still worry about anonymity no matter where we are, because the TSC core is very small.

I also wonder if those of us who had our doubts and opinions might have wondered if we were making a mountain out of a molehill, or if we would be judged.

These "sea stories" that I talk about were very one-on-one communication, either through email (I have certainly emailed friends to ask their opinion of vessels/captains when thinking of working for them) or in person.

It all really comes down to she-said-he-said, though. I think the biggest reason is that nothing was "said" about Captain Walbridge or Bounty is because we (those of us who hadn't sailed on Bounty) had no proof and for the most part only rumors. Like I said in my earlier post, most of Bounty's crew started green, and many didn't have anything to compare it to. There is also a thought of "well how else are we going to get xyz done? If I don't do it, someone else will." I certainly have thought that when faced with a task (say, attaching stays aloft).

Originally Posted by chef2sail

Why?
What are you not saying directly here?
Was there a problem with the Captain here?
Was there a problem with the crew?
Was there a problem with the Ship?
Was there a problem with the company which owned the ship?.

Can you be specific as to what the reason you warned your friends from working on the Bounty? Just saying you wouldnt work on the vessel or wouldnt want your friends to implies irregularities. Mmre than just poor pay.

I really don't want I'm saying to be used as fodder. What I will say is that when I first saw the Bounty in 2005, I was working for a sailing museum (I had yet to sail and would join my first ship a year later). I was interested and afterhours, introduced myself to the crew and they showed me around the boat. One of the crew asked if I wanted to go aloft and asked the captain for permission to show me. I was terrified of heights, but he was a cute boy and I certainly didn't want to miss out, so we climbed up to the main course or so, and he pointed out the rig, including describing certain yards as "unstayed" (the lifts were wonky and loose). In 2006 or 2007, she underwent a major yard restoration, and left for what was supposed to be a recreation of the original Bounty voyage. (I heard she ran out of funds, and just went to Europe.) A friend who was crew during this trip told me that in yard, "someone" had forgotten to put a seacock in, so a few days into the transAtlantic voyage, the crew noticed she was taking on water from the "hole" in her hull.

Naturally this stuck with me, and when I saw her again for a Festival in 2008, I was amazed she had looked so different and in much better shape. However, I did have conversations with one of the mates (a friend I met when he was sailing another boat) about why he trusted Walbridge, and how he felt about the boat. It came down to her restoration, and that Walbridge was convinced the ship would survive (I do remember my friend saying Walbridge said Bounty has a "positive buoyancy," that she would not sink completely).

A few years later (this story is related to me from captain friend, and eye-witnessed by his entire crew), Bounty was tied up to dock, and her crew and captain on deck for the morning muster. My friend said that wake came into harbor (his boat was tied on the opposite side of the pier), and Bounty, her docklines still tight from the tide coming in, started bouncing against the dock. My friend and his crew, who were also mustering on deck, watched this happen, and said none of the crew looked over the rail at the taut lines, or even moved. When Bounty started bouncing her "rub rail" (trim along the fore-and-aft midsection) and cracking it on the cement dock, Bounty crew finally noticed and eased her docklines. (Some of Bounty crew came up to my friend's crew and said they should have pointed out the tight lines. My experience as crew is that we ease lines for tide, and often operate a "pee watch" to adjust lines as well - that is, if you get up to pee in the middle of the night, check docklines.)

I really don't want to discuss details further, as some of them are more personal. When I've warned friends, I've often described the boat as "mis-handled." That is not to say Walbridge didn't know the boat.. I've seen him sail onto and off the dock, which is pretty crazy with a large boat. I think overall she was just not a safe boat, due to a lot of green crew, and much lower pay than most of the industry meant she may not have the best or most experienced crew. (I do know that for many years, her first and second mate were the same people, who had spent the majority of their TallShip experience on Bounty. As far as I know, they were excellent mates.)

Lastly, I know very little about the company. Those saying she was left for insurance money, or because she was for sale... frankly, she's been for sale for years, at least since 2010 that I know of. Several Tall Ships are. It's really just a matter of these boats often being more expensive upkeep than the owners realize, or hard times, especially in the last couple years.

[sparklepl3nty]

Originally Posted by JulieMor

What did surprise me was your statement about the general knowledge in the TSC to stay away from the Bounty and the relief felt my many in the community when Miles posted his letter on FB. Miles got pretty well trashed here for doing that.

I think a lot of it boils down to being green. The TSC is kind of divided (at least to crew) into a couple categories. There are boats you sail on to get your foot in the door (sometimes as volunteer, sometimes paid), other boats whose crew is very qualified and experienced. Some boats only offer "booze cruises" out of the same port, others that travel along the coast with children or students, and still others are "voyaging" and travel just to travel. Many boats offer a mix of this, as Pride II is a "goodwill" ship. She does carry passengers for daysails, and sometimes between ports, but the majority of her time is traveling for appearances.

So if you are new to the TSC, you may not know all the nuances or rumors about boats.

Originally Posted by JulieMor

When you apply that CYA mentality to the crew of the Bounty and the situation they were faced with at the dock when Walbridge told them of his plans to sail towards Sandy, one can just imagine what went through the minds of the crew. It wouldn't surprise me if they swallowed hard, crossed their fingers and stepped aboard hoping for the best.

I have to agree with you here. It would be a tough decision (weighing finances, letting your crew down, your next move as a sailor, etc) no matter what boat you're working for.

Originally Posted by JulieMor

Practically all the crew of the Bounty is on Facebook and not one has posted anything negative about the Bounty or its captain. There are many others on FB who have crewed on Bounty and they too have nothing bad to say about the ship or the captain, even the ones no longer working in the TSC.

Remember, not everyone has their Facebook public, and what we do say/have said/will say is likely private from the snooping eye. I wouldn't assume that just because you haven't seen it, it isn't there. Not to mention we are all hyper-aware of people looking for dirt.

Originally Posted by JulieMor

We're in tough economic times. Combine that with the lure of the sea many of us have, the romanticized images that may float through one's head just looking at these majestic tall ships and the desire to sail a tall ship, and it's easy to see how someone who crews on a tall ship would feel it wise to speak nothing negative about their experiences or their captain.

But, if that is in fact the case here, that silence cost the loss of ship and crew and will probably do so again unless regular inspections become mandatory. I fear the odds of that are very slim. The only other option is for those who have knowledge of poorly maintained vessels or reckless leadership to report that to the proper authorities. If the TSC is anything like the regular working world, there's almost no chance of that happening either.

I will say it again. Bounty was an irregularity. If you look at Tall Ships America's webpage, or wikipedia for info, you will find that at least 90% of these ships are inspected and have extremely high regulations. I have felt very secure on nearly all the vessels I have worked on, and trusted my captains.

[Brewgyver]

Originally Posted by PCP

The guy is not an engineerit is an handy man.

Regards

Paulo

I agree, and that is why I said "no engineer worth the name..." It would have been more accurate to say "no Engineer worth the title." If the Bounty actually had an experienced Engineer aboard, it is quite possible that we wouldn't be talking about it for 1200 plus posts.

[chef2sail]

Thank you for comming back and replying and giving us a further glimpse into what you saw.

I am not familiar with Witchcraft or her owner, so I Googled her. (theyachtwitchcraft.com) To be honest, she's kind of in an odd position.. I personally would describe her as classic boat or yacht. "Tall Ship" to most people are traditional sailing ships, but more in the pre-1900s style than anything else, with stepped masts

.

I am actually quite suprised you have never heard of Witchcraft before. She is a staple of the classB tall ships in the Baltimore area and is berthed in my marina 2 slips from me. She participates yearly in all of festivals in the area and many times over the years and now accompanied both the Pride of Baltimore and the Pride of Baltimore II in events on the Chesapeake. I beleive you mention you sailed on Both. The Captain of the Witchcraft also served on both Prides. He knows the Captain of the pride II and he knew Walbridge even. We spoke about this a week ago and I spoke with him today and showed him your post. Thats why I though you may have certainly run accross him as the Tall ship community here in the Chesapeake is a small one and they do a lot of travelking toigether to many of the festivals on the Chesapeake together.. You are correct that it is now a personal yacht and does not take passangers .

From your post it seems as though one of the things you are saying here is that this underfunded vessel, staffed by mostly green sailors was kind of a train wreck waiting to happen. Even the most basic seaman amongst us know about slacking lines through tidal changes and the effect on lines of a tidal change. In one way it sounds as if those who were on the Bounty were trying to live the dream of the Tall Ship era without the proper vessel, training and funding.

It almost sounds from what you say that them even taking this vessel out of the harbor is something they were not really qualified for by your description of dock lines and the thru hulls. No wonder you had no confidence in allowing your friends to board her in any way other than the dock. I guess she should have just stayed a dockside attraction some
where and not moved. Wow and to think this veessel went accross the Atlantic, San Diego, Peurto Rico with all this potential critical stuff just waiting to be exposed and sink her.

You and your associates on the well funded tall ships must have joked and talked about the Bounty in amazement and worried all the time that she would self destruct due to her green crew inability to handle the most basic of operations, or the lack of managerment of the vessels maintainence. You probably are not suprised that she sunk and assumed some tragedy would eventually befall her sooner or later...Sandy or not. The other TSC boats propbablky though it was grossly unfair all the regulations/ certifcations you had to undergo, while the Bounty went many places and didnt have to go through the same paces. They essentially got a free ride while you were under a microscope/

I bet she was a true embarrassment to the rest of the "real" tall ships in terms of professionalism as she really wasnt of the same ilk, and caliber and discipline or esprit de cor that you had on the "real" tall ships. She was truly the ugly ducking who called her self a tall ship but in your and others minds was really a wannabe tall ship and was just acting the part. It propably miffed many that the Bounty received so much attention and admiration from people because in your mind and the other TSC community she was really not of the same class as your ships. In your minds she was truly just a movie prop, not built to be a working tall ship like the Pride of Baltimore and Pride 2, which you sailed on or many of the other tall ships.

But as you have said the ship because it is reallly a large personal yacht in terms of classifcation does not have to pass any real CG or stringent inspections. Had this just been any other yacht which had sank, it propably would not have had the noteriety.

People do stupid things on ships and boats far worse with more loss of life than two people and dont get nearly the noteriety and play in the press as the Bounty has. Even her in the shark tank of sailnet, the Bounty has had so many permutations as to cause and hypothesis that havent been afforded other ships or vessels which have sunk. It may beg back to a questuion to which JulieMor asked in the beginnning, why does this Bounty evoke so much response?

No wonder you and some in the TSC now want to distance your self from them. I guess you couldnt when they were alive as you were collegues and didnt want to be tagged with being jealous of the publicity and noteriety this wannabe tall ship received. Also you want people to know that you have more stringent qualifications as far as crew and condition of your ships. You are the serious tall ships after all and the Bounty was just playing at it.

Maybe you could go back to some of your frriends and have them post similarly as you or at least come forward some way annonomously to weigh in on this Bounty in this or other forums. Now that you have made it apparent that she really was the outcast, the black sheep of the tall ship community, there shouldnt be any type of black listing or retributions from telling the truth as you indicate most in the TSC beleive as you did.. By doing this maybe you would all be doing this to prevent a similar situation from occuring again and can save lives.

It seems as though this poster indicates it was inevitable that something would happen to the Bounty every time she left the dock. Sailing off into a hurricane insured that it happened that day.

Again thank you for posting. You as a first hand account and professional of this TSC certainly are a breath of fresh air in this thread where lots of conjecture and hypothesis without first hand knowledge have been swirling. Its great to receive a post firsthand,
Your posts so far having given me another way of looking at this terrible tragedy.

Feel free to continue to add where you think you can without putting yourself in a compromising position.

.

[MarkofSeaLife]

Originally Posted by Brewgyver

I agree, and that is why I said "no engineer worth the name..." It would have been more accurate to say "no Engineer worth the title." If the Bounty actually had an experienced Engineer aboard, it is quite possible that we wouldn't be talking about it for 1200 plus posts.

I wish you would stop speaking like a jerk. You have good intelligent things to say but the bravado, or twaddle you surround them with drops your IQ to sub normal. Just be real.

Yes. I agree that if there was a proper Maine diesel engineer, and maybe an apparentice or offsider, it could have survived more hours. I doubt for long as the weather was deteriorating and they were driving further into the Gulf Stream where the waves would have been bigger.

I am amazed the US Government allows these sort of vessels to run "uninspected" where ther is no law, no fault, no restrictions... Look up Uninspected Vessel and see what they get away with.

I think Bradesdale did a wonderful, heroic job, but he is a home handyman, not a qualified marine diesel mechanic of many years standing.
The poor bugger was only on board a few weeks and never was given the chance to cleanup the engine room let alone get to grips with it.

I would never slag him, but I do the authorities who allowed it, and the authorities who desired it... The captain and the owners. Again the captain comes directly not play. A fool who didnt want a marine diesel mechanic.


Mark

[NCC320]

sparklepl3nty,

Thanks for your informative posts. But take care for your own personal interests. As you said, you are in a small community, and the word has a way of getting back, especially if someone was to decide to get themselves involved where they don't belong. As I'm sure you have seen, when people restate things they don't really say what you said and they read more into it. I would hate for this community to cause you trouble after you came forward. Be careful of leading questions. The more you say, the more that someone will be able to identify you and then cause trouble for you in your field. I've seen that happen before in other places.

Again thanks, but please be careful.