HMS Bounty in trouble... - Page 23 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree718Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #221  
Old 11-02-2012
wingNwing's Avatar
formerly posting as eryka
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: aboard s/v Cinderella
Posts: 1,123
Thanks: 5
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 6
wingNwing is on a distinguished road
Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I'm waiting for the results of this: Coast Guard to conduct investigation into HMS Bounty sinking

The sea is big and sometimes scary. If we can convince ourselves that other peoples' dumb decisions are the cause of their problems, then we can convince ourselves that since we would NEVER make a decision like that, we would be safe no matter what, and we don't have to face the real truth, that whenever you go to sea, however much you prepare, however vigilant you are, sometimes things will happen that put you at risk that you cannot control.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Cinderella, CSY 33, Photo by Joe McCary

Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. - Sidney J. Harris


Shameless self-promotion - my blog for the Annapolis Capital newspaper:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
still has some glitches to be worked out. Until then, I'm posting at:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
! And a new project:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #222  
Old 11-02-2012
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,704
Thanks: 23
Thanked 46 Times in 42 Posts
Rep Power: 7
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
worded that badly.

I should have said does not a 25 knot wind pushing over opposing 7 knot current
result in the same sea state as a 32 knot wind blowing over water
that is not moving. My use of the terms "calm seas" screwed up
the meaning.-preventec47
Answer is still NO, not at all.

Waves, seas state not only depend on wind speed, but also depth, fetch, topography,and current at a minimum. There are other factors also.

I have crossed the Gulf Stream many times. Take 4-5 GS knot current with wind from the North. Lets assume a gentle 20 knots. The sea state outside the GS could be 4-6 swells at 15 second period, which is easily sailed in all directions, but in the GS the same 20 knorts would make it a very uncoimfortable ride and almost stop you from heading northerly. The sea state might be 10-12 with a 8 second period.

Inlets such as Barnegat in NJ are another example. Water rushing out the inlet on the outgoing tide in Barnegat Bat moves at 2 knotss east. In the inlet channel which is narrow ( Bernullis pricipal) that water is now moving 5 knotts east.

If you come in on an onshore breeze of 15 knts ( opposing) the ocean would be a nice 2-4 easy swell, because there are shoals extending outward 1/2 mile from the inlet these 2-4 foot sweels hit the 5 knot current in substabtially shallower water these swells now become 8 foot breaking crashing rollers aross the inlet which can throw you on the rocks.
Back in the Bay behind the inlet the water has no swell in the 15 knot breeze becasue there is no open fetch. Sames scenario with incoming tide would be maybe 2 ft brakers in the inlet channel with no danger at all.

Other NJ Inlets without the shoaling such as Cape may, AStlantic City ( Absecon) and Manesquan have no shoals so there arent breakers like barnegat, bit the current against wind does create a rougher sea state in the inlet.

This is a very simple explaination to a solution that contains many variables including the ones I mentioned above.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #223  
Old 11-02-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: HI
Posts: 2,665
Thanks: 2
Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts
Rep Power: 4
casey1999 is on a distinguished road
Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingNwing View Post
I'm waiting for the results of this: Coast Guard to conduct investigation into HMS Bounty sinking

The sea is big and sometimes scary. If we can convince ourselves that other peoples' dumb decisions are the cause of their problems, then we can convince ourselves that since we would NEVER make a decision like that, we would be safe no matter what, and we don't have to face the real truth, that whenever you go to sea, however much you prepare, however vigilant you are, sometimes things will happen that put you at risk that you cannot control.
A skilled mariner does not simply go to sea. They look at their ship, they look at their crew, the look at the weather and the forecasted weather. They look at the risk vs reward of the trip, they look at the need for making the trip, they look at back up plans in case of foul weather, they look at how they can perform damage control, they look at safety gear and equipment, they look at communications equipment.

Sailing is actually very safe if done in a seaman like manner, you make it out to be much more dangerous than it has to be.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #224  
Old 11-02-2012
Da Most Educated Red Neck
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD
Posts: 2,285
Thanks: 18
Thanked 16 Times in 8 Posts
Rep Power: 8
rockDAWG is on a distinguished road
Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I hope this is going to be different. Remember that the reason of the inquery is not to find if the Captain took or not bad decisions : "Coast Guard investigations of marine casualties and accidents are for the purpose of taking appropriate measures for promoting safety of life and property and are not intended to fix civil or criminal responsibility".

Remember that have been several accidents with tall ships and the public demands measures to be taken in what regards safety. If they don't propose measures to control the risks of sailing on those ships, and remember these ships take public and teenagers to sail, next time a accident happens it will be said that was because they had sit and watch, doing nothing.

I think many things can be purposed: a sensible minimum crew requirement for each boat, a minimum sailing qualification on these type of ships for each crew member, regular and very frequent inspections for old boats and so on.

Also in what regards wooden boats it makes all sense to have a permanent naval carpenter as part of the crew. When ships were made of wood the carpenter was an indispensable member of the crew and the one that advised the captain what the boat could endure and when was time to stop sailing and take defensive measures. He could also made emergency repairs and the ship had aboard material for that.

The crew on the original Bounty had not only a master carpenter as also two other auxiliary to take care of any emergency.

Regards

Paulo
Paulo

If you read it carefully may statement

Quote:
May be or may be NOT. I think our society have become a whining society. No one is willing to take responsibility for oneself. We have lost our spirits of self-reliance.
was to reply to the statement made by casey1999 on Political Correctness comment. There is nothing to do with Bounty tragedy.

I do not want to the Chesapeake Lion troll to use your pose to attack me.
__________________

Fine Print:
I read, I think, and I act independently; I don't come here to win a popular contest on Sailnet, nor I am here for hookup. I come here to learn, be challenged and be inspired in the art of sailing the big Ponds. I am NOT afraid of drowning in the sea, but I am afraid of dying in a nursing home and burdening those who I love.
I am old school. Integrity is to do the right thing even when no one is watching.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #225  
Old 11-02-2012
wingNwing's Avatar
formerly posting as eryka
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: aboard s/v Cinderella
Posts: 1,123
Thanks: 5
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 6
wingNwing is on a distinguished road
Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I didn't say you "simply put to sea." I said that no matter how carefully you prepare and how vigilant you are, that you can only influence, but not control, what happens after you set sail - and that some of that will be dangerous.
chef2sail likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Cinderella, CSY 33, Photo by Joe McCary

Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. - Sidney J. Harris


Shameless self-promotion - my blog for the Annapolis Capital newspaper:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
still has some glitches to be worked out. Until then, I'm posting at:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
! And a new project:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #226  
Old 11-02-2012
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,704
Thanks: 23
Thanked 46 Times in 42 Posts
Rep Power: 7
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
I do not want to the Chesapeake Lion troll to use your pose to attack me-Rockdawg
Man up. Was that comment aimed at me? Kind of personal dont you think?

Dave
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #227  
Old 11-02-2012
JulieMor's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 853
Thanks: 47
Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 3
JulieMor is on a distinguished road
Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I can't imagine anything coming from the investigation that could result in me saying, "Okay, now I see why he had to set sail in the direction of a hurricane. Not his fault." I haven't seen anything written here and I've racked my brain to figure what could have possibly compelled him to set sail. And I have yet to read one comment, anywhere, that says, "Yeah, given what we all knew at the time, I can see heading out to sea like he did," or anything even close to that.

We know when he set sail there was a hurricane thrashing the Bahamas. He knew of the hurricane. (If he didn't he should never have been a captain of that ship.) We know his destination was Florida and that he headed south. What more could possibly come out of the investigation that could exonerate him from blame?
casey1999 and SloopJonB like this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #228  
Old 11-02-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: HI
Posts: 2,665
Thanks: 2
Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts
Rep Power: 4
casey1999 is on a distinguished road
Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingNwing View Post
I didn't say you "simply put to sea." I said that no matter how carefully you prepare and how vigilant you are, that you can only influence, but not control, what happens after you set sail - and that some of that will be dangerous.
After you set sail, you can control your boat, maybe not the weather, but you should be in control of how and where your ship is going. Sure things break and weather changes, but a good seaman adjusts for that. And most seamen would not set sail when a huricane is lurking. And knowing that predicted huricane tracks are not very accurate, and in no way should lives be dependent on a predicted course of a storm that would have nearly a 100% chance of causing equipment damage and or loss of life.

Everything we do can be dangerous, from waliking across a street, to driving to flying, sailing is actually one of the safest activities.
JulieMor likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #229  
Old 11-02-2012
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,704
Thanks: 23
Thanked 46 Times in 42 Posts
Rep Power: 7
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
What more could possibly come out of the investigation that could exonerate him from blame?-JulieMmor
I dont know. I knd of agree, but I want to wait until the facts come out.

We dont know how much pressure he was getting from outside interests. I know he could have said know to that, but we dont know. There may be others responsible for his leaving on this schedule.

Exonerate is a big word here....that implies guilt. "To free from blame.
To free from a responsibility, obligation, or task"

In the USA were are presumed innocent till proven guilty. Guilt is determined by theall the facts after an independent investigation.
There may be shared responsibility here. I know to you and others that sounds incredulous, but it may be true.

Again my point here is not to defend the captain. It appears on first look you may be right It is to say that a rush to judgement before all of the facts are in and certainly no first hand statements is unwise, unecessary and smacks of poor judgement itself.

People on here have been criticised recently, given Darwinism awards foor poor judgement even though they knew all the facts before they made decisions to remain on their boats during the storm, even to the extent they were said to have poor judgement

Now some of the same people who did the above want to judge and pillory this captain without all the facts yet. Who is the one with the poor judgement



Quote:
I propose we give the sailing Darwin Awards to everybody who stayed on their boats thru Sandy ( I mean those in Sandy's zone of damage). If you stay aboard, nobody thinks you are brave, we think you're a moron. You endanger your life, you endanger any rescuers and you make sailors in general look foolish.Frogwatch

Quote:
I have yet to hear anyone who survived a serious storm by deciding to ride it out say they would do it again. That alone should be enough to compel anyone who is predicted to be in harms way to leave. But there are always those who believe there's something special about them that enables them to fend off the onslaught of Mother Nature-JulieMor

Quote:
If you stayed aboard then sell the boat NOW before you endanger somebody else.-Frogwatch
And then the voice of reason steps in, look at everything before deciding or judging

Quote:
It depends on the particular situation. There are too many variables to set some sort of mindless rule designed for the least capable sailor. Not all storms require abandoning your boat. Some people are capable of making that call on their own-smurphy
My question...why CANT you wait until most or all of the facts are in....what compells you to rush to judgement...people who rush to judgement scare me big time...maybe that means on their boats they will rush to judgement and not get all the facts to make a proper decision therefore endangering others.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #230  
Old 11-02-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 8,227
Thanks: 6
Thanked 87 Times in 84 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I'm waiting to hear more about why she was taking on water.

Ironically, the absolute first mention of this tragedy that I recall, insisted Bounty was not off the Coast of Hatteras, because there was rumor she sailed East of the storm.

That said, I really can't even think of a scenario that could be learned that will justify having departed on this trip. I may be proven wrong, but the reason will have to justify risking lives of people reportedly not experienced on Bounty to assess the risk for themselves. Even if the weather and inexperienced crew were not the direct cause of the sinking, it put even more lives at risk to rescue them.

There seems to be a common denominator that those that met the Captain are most protective. That may be equally clouding perspective.

While some don't want to hear speculation, I submit this in the spirit of demonstrating this isn't a witch hunt, but rather an attempt to understand. My suspicion is that Robin was a good Captain that survived many difficulties at sea and each one emboldened the thought that risk was more manageable. That would, in fact, be a good lesson for others to learn, IF it proves to be the case.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rhodes Bounty ll white rabbit Introduce Yourself 1 10-12-2012 03:33 AM
New Member - Hardin 45 ( 44 voyager bounty ) Bianchi Introduce Yourself 9 01-29-2011 09:33 PM
HELP!! , Need move a boat NC to WA (Rhodes Bounty II, 40'10 x 28' x 10'3" x 5'9") sailandoar General Discussion (sailing related) 1 08-23-2006 01:11 PM
Bounty Windjammer Spectacle (Boothbay Register) NewsReader News Feeds 0 06-23-2006 03:15 PM
April 28, 1789, Aboard the HMS Bounty: NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 04-28-2006 01:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:41 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012