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  #241  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I hope this is going to be different. Remember that the reason of the inquery is not to find if the Captain took or not bad decisions : "Coast Guard investigations of marine casualties and accidents are for the purpose of taking appropriate measures for promoting safety of life and property and are not intended to fix civil or criminal responsibility".
Maybe not totally different:

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottbr View Post
The district formal investigation will probe every aspect of the accident and will determine as closely as possible:

...whether there is evidence that any act of misconduct, inattention to duty, negligence, or willful violation of the law on the part of any licensed or certificated person contributed to the casualty...
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  #242  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

For Chef and WingnWing.

Check out this site. These guys really know what they are talking about. GCaptain apparently a site for maritime professionals, got some good reads in it.

HMS Bounty and Hurricane Sandy

HMS Bounty and Hurricane Sandy - Page 7
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  #243  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Please bear with me, I tried to post this early this AM, but my internet is painfully slow at the moment... Not surprising, for one whose house went underwater Monday night... (grin)

Paolo said it first, about 20 pages ago... that boat simply should not have been where it was, period... I've seen it suggested that there might be extenuating circumstances, perhaps even that Trowbridge was not even in command... Well, OK, in that event, whoever was holding a gun to his head when they left New London is the one who bears responsibility for this tragedy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
they were never IN a hurricane. never. they wer e WEST of the hurricane and AST of a strong cold front, that was merging with the hurricane. if you GO TO BOUNTY'S FB AN DWEB PAGES you will see the path exactly between the two fronts. no steep seas and winds were only 40 mph, as per the rescue scene. where the two fronts have meeting winds, is a space not wide , to be able to use for a time.
"No steep seas"??? In the axis of the Gulf Stream, abeam of Hatteras, with the eye of Hurricane Sandy abeam to the east???

Sorry, but you cannot be serious… There is simply no way to “skirt” a storm 800 miles wide, that tracks north a couple of hundred miles off the Outer Banks, by passing to the west of the eye… And, your belief that the BOUNTY would have been in “milder winds and seas” betrays precious little understanding of what a southbound passage around Cape Hatteras entails…

Even for a seasoned crew of Volvo Race veterans, departing Newport a week ago aboard a 100’ Swan, such an attempt to shoot the gap between such a monstrous area of circulation and Hatteras, and being in the Stream abeam of the passage of the storm’s eye when the breeze was northerly at it’s greatest strength, to do so would be a maneuver of extreme risk… For a vessel as un-weatherly as the BOUNTY, with that compliment of crew, reliant upon engines and generators to deal with such conditions, such a plan borders on the suicidal, one of the most ill-advised acts of seamanship by a professional mariner I’ve seen in a VERY long time…

Watching that interview, I’ll cut Trowbridge a bit of slack, perhaps to a certain extent he was grandstanding for that idiot conducting the interview… But anyone who takes literally his preposterous claim that being on the deck of the BOUNTY in 70’ seas would be a tame, placid experience, not much different than standing there on deck while moored in Belfast, is either a fool, or dreaming, or has never sailed on any body of water beyond a pond…

I can appreciate the comments from those who caution that we should “wait until we know the full story”, et cetera, before rendering judgment on the master’s decision to proceed when he did… Fair enough, and generous and respectful in spirit, but I find his decision nothing short of unfathomable… And, I would like to hear anyone’s suggestions for any reasons or rationale that were sufficiently compelling to take such a gigantic risk, aboard such an unsuitable vessel, with a shorthanded crew of indeterminate experience…

Again, "unfathomable" is the only word I can conjure suitable to describe it...
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  #244  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Please bear with me, I tried to post this early this AM, but my internet is painfully slow at the moment... Not surprising, for one whose house went underwater Monday night... (grin)

Paolo said it first, about 20 pages ago... that boat simply should not have been where it was, period... I've seen it suggested that there might be extenuating circumstances, perhaps even that Trowbridge was not even in command... Well, OK, in that event, whoever was holding a gun to his head when they left New London is the one who bears responsibility for this tragedy...



"No steep seas"??? In the axis of the Gulf Stream, abeam of Hatteras, with the eye of Hurricane Sandy abeam to the east???

Sorry, but you cannot be serious… There is simply no way to “skirt” a storm 800 miles wide, that tracks north a couple of hundred miles off the Outer Banks, by passing to the west of the eye… And, your belief that the BOUNTY would have been in “milder winds and seas” betrays precious little understanding of what a southbound passage around Cape Hatteras entails…

Even for a seasoned crew of Volvo Race veterans, departing Newport a week ago aboard a 100’ Swan, such an attempt to shoot the gap between such a monstrous area of circulation and Hatteras, and being in the Stream abeam of the passage of the storm’s eye when the breeze was northerly at it’s greatest strength, to do so would be a maneuver of extreme risk… For a vessel as un-weatherly as the BOUNTY, with that compliment of crew, reliant upon engines and generators to deal with such conditions, such a plan borders on the suicidal, one of the most ill-advised acts of seamanship by a professional mariner I’ve seen in a VERY long time…

Watching that interview, I’ll cut Trowbridge a bit of slack, perhaps to a certain extent he was grandstanding for that idiot conducting the interview… But anyone who takes literally his preposterous claim that being on the deck of the BOUNTY in 70’ seas would be a tame, placid experience, not much different than standing there on deck while moored in Belfast, is either a fool, or dreaming, or has never sailed on any body of water beyond a pond…

I can appreciate the comments from those who caution that we should “wait until we know the full story”, et cetera, before rendering judgment on the master’s decision to proceed when he did… Fair enough, and generous and respectful in spirit, but I find his decision nothing short of unfathomable… And, I would like to hear anyone’s suggestions for any reasons or rationale that were sufficiently compelling to take such a gigantic risk, aboard such an unsuitable vessel, with a shorthanded crew of indeterminate experience…

Again, "unfathomable" is the only word I can conjure suitable to describe it...
Silence...

Rip Captain Walbridge


Rip Claudene Christian
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Last edited by JulieMor; 11-02-2012 at 09:52 PM.
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  #245  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
For Chef and WingnWing.

Check out this site. These guys really know what they are talking about. GCaptain apparently a site for maritime professionals, got some good reads in it.

HMS Bounty and Hurricane Sandy

HMS Bounty and Hurricane Sandy - Page 7
Some of the content on the first site, one for professional Captains:

The Idiot aboard ( I am somewhat reluctant to call him 'the Master') posted a pretty interesting note on Saturday.
It read something like this: " we are heading out, some would call this wrong. It is a calculated risk".

Well buck-o me thinks you have a different set of calculators than a prudent seaman! And for him to post such a dumb statement shows he was wrestling with the prudence of this decision and trying to justify it.

Another guy:
They sure are acting like they are reckless yachties. Not only did they put themselves in grave danger by trying to sail aroundp Cape Hatteras during a hurricane they will also be endangering the CG chopper crews who will have to go out and save them.

Another:
No I am sorry but a voyage of choice not necessity in an old ship into a storm of historic proportions? I don't care about hull condition or experience of the master or crew. We're experienced professionals here and don't need a USCG report to judge this one. If the ship is truly lost then it is a massive failure and if people are lost then it is manslaughter!

Another:
Michael Murray, a former crewmember on the Bounty, raises issues that may implicate the owner of the vessel:


I will say this about the Bounty... As memorable and as valuable of an experience it was to be an integral part of her first restoration as her bosun, I left the project a few weeks early along with several others because of the reckless decisions that were made by the owner at the time that put people at risk.

Namely, a decision to remove a 35x35 inch bowsprit that was rotting without the proper support left a 17 year old 3rd mate severely injured after he toppled over the headrail along with several others. I remember that nightmarish scenario like yesterday when I saw it all go down up on the foretop. That, most definitely, never needed to occur...

My guess is that Capt. Walbridge was overruled as to a decision to continue on with the voyage to St. Pete in the face of this monster storm. If that is truly the case, then it is indicative of a management condition, that unfortunately, has now finally resulted in such a majestic and endearing vessel to come to grief. Truly tragic in every sense of the word!


another:
This whole thing is totally tragic. So surreal watching this whole thing play out on GCaptain and internet blogs. Having made comments prior to the rescue attempt, I take solace that my negative comments towards the captain were made during the period that the HMS Bounty organisation reported ALL hands safely aboard liferafts. I wonder where they got there info. Let us at least respect the dead, for he is surely lost at sea. Obviously, mistakes were made, yet I find comments praising his death to be rather sickening. Anyone posting that his family should be happy of his death so he won't have to live in shame, should be ashamed of themselves. The man did have a wife, son , and daughter, and my heart truly goes out to them. I believe the scrutiny should now fall on the HMS ORGANISATIOn. I do agree, I hope all the insurance money goes to the deceased female crew's family. Someone who personally new Walbridge assured us here that the comments supposedly made by him on the Bounty site were my his words. Really curious to see how this one plays out now that scrutiny will now fall on the organisation!! The man was well intentioned.despite making a dire mistake, that hopefully only cost him his life. However, I would not be surprised to learn he went into the water after Claudene. Let's hope she makes it, I pray the reports of her dying at the hospital are false. A death at sea probably isn't nearly as romantic as books and movies make it out to be. At least the last stage of hypothermia you get drunk and happy, all things probably seem right in the world, when they are truly not.

Well, I am going to read the rest of it ...it is really interesting.
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Last edited by PCP; 11-02-2012 at 10:32 PM.
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  #246  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I have been reading on that Captain's forum and there are there interesting stuff. This time about the Bounty:


Yes, the bounty was an uninspected vessel classed as a dockside attraction.The ship was only allowed to take up to 12 passengers.

.......

So that means it should never put to sea. I feel that Chief Rob is correct in assuming what he thinks it sounds like: a dock side attraction is a 'dock side attraction' and not a vessel for sailing with or without passengers, at the very most as Near Coastal. And....how do you determine an "un inspected vessel classed as a dockside attraction" but is allowed up to 12 passengers? Seems to be a large grey area here.

.....

as an uninspected passenger vessel, BOUNTY's hull was not in any way obligated to hull examination by the USCG.

....

I am sure the investigation will touch on this subject to the great dismay of the carnival boat crowd.

.....

Here is what I feel is the most disrespectful aspect of the 'Industry'. The industry depends upon almost solely "paid" crewmembers who PAY for the privilege of being allowed to crew! These people are on a 'pay to play' vessel. They are not considered passengers, because they are necessary to operate the vessel. The sail training org has used this as a way to help cover operating expenses for years. They are in effect taking paying passengers for hire, using them as crew, and as far as anyone outside knows they are signed on as crew. Only a couple people on the ships are actual professional deckhands. Likely the Captain is the only one with a license.

....

Having sailed through many on the bounty I can tell you, we would have to keep the pumps running almost constantly to keep the boat dry. When it was dead calm out, we would still pump out the ship every hour. That is the reality of these wooden ships.

...

So a vessel that leaked this amount, departed for sea KNOWING it was dependent upon power operated bilge pumps for surviving, and did NOT have plain old mechanical hand operated pumps? THAT is your redundancy you were discussing a couple posts ago. Having two electric pumps on a wooden hull is ok.... IF there is a hand pump as backup. Every sailboat I have been on has one.

Sorry Charlie, that right there is all I need to hear about the negligence of both the Captain AND the owner for allowing the vessels to sail (at all)
I would venture to guess that they started taking on more water than they could handle, engine room floods, no more power...

there are two motor/generators and two engines on the Bounty. One MG was in continuous use because the other MG was broken and had been that way for at least a year. The running MG was never turned off even in port because they "were afraid it wouldn't start again" if they shut it down. There is a water tight door below the galley however there is a 1' x 2' gap underneath the WTD which wouldn't seal. The aft mast was broken from the previous storm they endured. There was little or no way to keep water from going into the ship via the deck because there were no hatches on the deck. The bottom line is that the ship was in very poor mechanical condition even to the most ignorant of inspectors. It certainly should not have been taken into rough seas.

...
Without doubt! In wildly short and steep stern seas, that horn timber and rudder would be twisting constantly and it was only a short matter of time before all the plank ends sprung and then popping the planks off the frames forward from there. With the engine and generators all aft, that was the first space to flood and I hazard to guess that the vessel did not have an emergency generator or an emergency bilge pump?

....

With this scenario, the way to save the vessel would have been to have to wear ship to bring her head to the sea and to stream anything possible in the form of a storm anchor to hold the head up. With the strain off the sternpost, the flooding might have subsided enough for the pumps to keep up with the inrush of water. What I want to know is each and every step Walbridge took in the 12 hours prior to the loss of the vessel? The survivors hopefully will tell us soon.
...



As you can all see this is pretty bad. No inspections at all? Jesus I know that in the US you don't like rules and regulations but this seems plain crazy to me And by the way, it is not normal to a wooden boat to make that amount of water...it is only normal in an old boat that should be grounded ore have a complete refit.

...
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Last edited by PCP; 11-03-2012 at 12:06 AM.
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  #247  
Old 11-03-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Maybe not totally different:

My post was a cut and paste of the USCG News Release. Should have posted that on the original.



Coast Guard to conduct investigation into HMS Bounty sinking
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  #248  
Old 11-03-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I have been reading on that Captain's forum and there are there interesting stuff. This time about the Bounty:

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Yes, the bounty was an uninspected vessel classed as a dockside attraction.The ship was only allowed to take up to 12 passengers.
Sounds like another shining example of the benefit of free and unregulated capitalism. It certainly demonstrates the "self regulating" nature of that philosophy - too bad people had to die for such Friedmanesque purity.
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  #249  
Old 11-03-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Sounds like another shining example of the benefit of free and unregulated capitalism. It certainly demonstrates the "self regulating" nature of that philosophy - too bad people had to die for such Friedmanesque purity.
Unregulated capitalism? Seriously? Not in the USA, despite rhetoric. Our Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) is almost 160,000 pages long!! There are something like 50 federal regulatory agencies. Add State and Local and the number is countless. You can't make a ham sandwich here without being subject to a regulation.

Let's see if they were operating within the limits of the regulations that do exist. I highly suspect we are going to learn they were not, but let's see. If not, writing more won't obviously make much difference, will it.

p.s. "uninspected vessel" is a term of art in USCG certificates and doesn't mean you are free to do whatever you want.
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  #250  
Old 11-03-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by preventec47 View Post
I worded that badly.

I should have said does not a 25 knot wind pushing over opposing 7 knot current
result in the same sea state as a 32 knot wind blowing over water
that is not moving. My use of the terms "calm seas" screwed up
the meaning.
Think about the relative densities - a cubic foot of air weighs about 1-1/4 ounces; a cubic foot of water weighs 64 pounds. Which one will push you about more? A 2-knot breeze won't even ruffle the hair on your head, a 2-knot current will move your boat and screw up your docking if you're coming into a marina. One of our Navy friends said that when you're trying to figure out which way you'll lie at anchor, it takes about 30 knots of wind to overcome 1 knot of current, though I assume that depends on the shape of your hull and your windage.
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