HMS Bounty in trouble...

[PCP]

Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife

T...

In the Bahamas this year before the hurricane season started you may remember the weather was bad with a string of preseason storms.
I could not believe how many boats left Marsh Harbour to go to the USA in such bad weather! Talk about uncomfortable! not really dangerous, but uncomfortable!

I counseled a friend not to go... But he was "forced" to by crew. His voyage of three days was so bad he put his boat up for sale at the other end!!!
Oh and before the old timers start their slagging, it was one of those old fashioned full keel jobs, not a production boat.

....

Yes there's lots for us to learn from the Bounty. Complacency is a good one.


Mark

Yes, not to mention that the weather reports are not always true and conditions can be worst. For two times I had made the mistake of trusting weather reports with uncomfortable results. I don't mean that I had the boat or the crew at risk but if I could or know that I was going to sail on those conditions I would no sailed away. One time out of North Africa with a downwind f7, that would just give me a good ride home, that turned in a f9/10 and the other one with a possible downwind f8 that turned in as a real f9.

On the last one (this year) I sailed out because on the last days the WR was giving the possibility of f6 and f7 and I never got more than f4, so I guessed they were always exaggerating

Regards

Paulo

[JulieMor]

Working construction for almost 40 years I often heard the guys trash talk weekend warriors but I've met some weekend warriors that really impressed me. And I've known MANY construction pros who were an embarrassment to their trade.

FWIW

[Minnewaska]

Originally Posted by Capt.aaron

Problem is, pro's cost money. I make $3*** dollars a day and it just goes up from here....A day. The opperating cost's would go through the roof if you put 9 proprely credential seaman on board. A captain, first mate, second mate, third mate, 3 ab's and and engineer as minimum. They can pay us like that in the dangerous liquid cargo transportation industry because we charge a lot to transfer the product, You'd have to charge $500 a ticket for sunset sail to afford a professional crew on the tall ships / schooners. Maybe that's why they have incidents like this.

I already understood the economic impact it would have on the Tall Ships. However, I also think it will be the best way to prevent another Bounty incident. Perhaps the full compliment will only be required for passages, as opposed to tourist tours around the Bay.

Ultimately, it may mean that most Tall Ships just don't make these passages, which is fine by me.

[Deb Morrin]

Here is the thing. We have all be caught by surprise storms and maybe that is the unfortunate thing that happened to Bounty. However, it was long on the radar. Hey I am a woman, not a guy, so maybe that reflects my personal opinion is I would rather have the boat wreck itself in a harbor with the crew safe and sound on land, than risk lives by heading out to sea in a severe storm. Saving a boat is not worth risking peoples' lives. NOt to mention the cost of the rescue and putting at risk Coast Guard lives as well.

[PCP]

Originally Posted by Deb Morrin

Here is the thing. We have all be caught by surprise storms and maybe that is the unfortunate thing that happened to Bounty. However, it was long on the radar. Hey I am a woman, not a guy, so maybe that reflects my personal opinion is I would rather have the boat wreck itself in a harbor with the crew safe and sound on land, than risk lives by heading out to sea in a severe storm. Saving a boat is not worth risking peoples' lives. NOt to mention the cost of the rescue and putting at risk Coast Guard lives as well.

You are right, off course and has nothing to do with you being a woman...and welcome to the sailnet. Great first post. I hope it will be the first of many

Regards

Paulo

[chef2sail]

But he was "forced" to by crewMarkseaof life.

Good post. NOt sure how a Captain can let his crew force him to leave. A good Captain should have stood his ground. One of the things learned from Rule62. The Captain must do what is right for the safety of those hes in charge of and not succemb to the pressure of the crew. ( even if it is your wife).

Dave

[Hartley18]

Originally Posted by Sal Paradise

The realistic thing to put in place is a board of directors that manage the routing and missions of the ship with stability , condition, risk in mind. Roger Long wrote that regarding the Pride of Baltimore that the recommendation was for a policy based on stability curves and other studies which the board should use to task and route the ship. If there is a chance of exceeding the capability of the vessel, it either does not go on the trip, or its route and/or schedule is altered.

Its not the best situation to rely on a mutiny or insubordination of the crew as a safety plan.

If the Bounty had such a policy and directors overseeing its implementation, then without a doubt she would still be afloat.

Sal, many, many, commercial shipping companies already have policies and directors and routing and all the rest of it, but the most idiotic (in hindsight) stuff still happens. Costa Concordia, Rena, Exxon Valdez.. need we go on?

The sea is not something you can tame or control and "stability curves" make absolutely no difference against rogue waves, freak storms, navigational errors, etc. As has been pointed out several times already, you can't mitigate against stupid... and even the most experienced sea-captains have been known to make the wrong decisions from time to time.

..so IMHO if the Bounty had such a policy and directors overseeing its implementation, then, sure as eggs, she would still be right where she is now.

[PCP]

Originally Posted by Hartley18

Sal, many, many, commercial shipping companies already have policies and directors and routing and all the rest of it, but the most idiotic (in hindsight) stuff still happens. Costa Concordia, Rena, Exxon Valdez.. need we go on?

The sea is not something you can tame or control and "stability curves" make absolutely no difference against rogue waves, freak storms, navigational errors, etc. As has been pointed out several times already, you can't mitigate against stupid... and even the most experienced sea-captains have been known to make the wrong decisions from time to time.

..so IMHO if the Bounty had such a policy and directors overseeing its implementation, then, sure as eggs, she would still be right where she is now.

Well, if the boat licence specified that the boat should not sail over f7 or go out of port with a prevision of winds over f7, the boat would be still afloat.

Regards

Paulo

[Capt.aaron]

Originally Posted by JulieMor

Working construction for almost 40 years I often heard the guys trash talk weekend warriors but I've met some weekend warriors that really impressed me. And I've known MANY construction pros who were an embarrassment to their trade.

FWIW

I'd hire a skilled amature carpenter to build a deck or even an addition, not to manuver a derick crane on top of a sky scraper with city traffic below. To get an AB unlimited licsense you need 1080 day's at sea on a vessel with some tonnage on it. That's a lot of weekends. That's the minimum a watch keeper should have on a ship the size of the Bounty.
The Phantom had some land lubb'n board of director's seal there fate. And A young Captain who did'nt have the ball's to take control of his ship.

[Hartley18]

Originally Posted by PCP

Well, if the boat licence specified that the boat should not sail over f7 or go out of port with a prevision of winds over f7, the boat would be still afloat.

Is that what the boat license said, Paulo?? What source?

I'd be very surprised if it did.. such decisions are usually the responsibility of the Captain. It's his job to know the capabilities of his ship and if something goes wrong (like this) he's the one who has to explain (just like the captain of Costa Concordia had to).