HMS Bounty in trouble...

[PCP]

Originally Posted by Capt.aaron

Ship builder's should build the strongest and well built ships they can. If they are building a replica of a 19th century wooden tall ship, ...

18th century ship:

"Bounty was originally known as collier Bethia, built in 1784 at the Blaydes shipyard in Hull."


That does not change what you say, make it a little worst, I mean regarding the Ship design in what regards seaworthiness.

Regards

Paulo

[Capt.aaron]

Originally Posted by Minnewaska

Haven't met a pilot born in the sky yet. I don't think this is a serious disqualifier. I understand the frustration with bureaucracy. I'm willing to wager a round at Sloppy Joes that the FAA is more bureaucratic, almost all of which have never flown an aircraft at all. Still, there are some very capable USCG officers.



I think she did. I know the Captain himself is on tape saying so, as well as one of the rescued crew members. I believe it was the first mate.

There are sailors borne to the Sea. Son of gun's. son's of son's of son's. People borne in community's that live and die by the sea. It gives a sailor a predisposition for being a Seaman, and it is a qualifier. Reading a brochure in your high school lobby about joining the coast gaurd and getting out of Indiana, set's a student on a learning curve all ready ingrained in a Glouscterman's DNA. In a few hundred year's we may have son's of the sky as flight becomes more and more advanced, but today, we have the sea as our heritage...lineage. I work close to, live close to and have relitives in the coast guard, I work for ex-coasties, I witness time and time again their inept, and at times silly take on Seamanship. The helicopter squad's and swimmer are great, hat's off to them. Their office squad can suck it.

[PCP]

Originally Posted by chef2sail

I wasnt talking about a whole crew of professionals here. Some of the opinions expressed here were that you had a bunch of syncophants or cult ( tall ship groupies) sailing this ship. Not sure I completely agree with that characterization, but knowing that the Captain is the only professional aboard the ship, a ship which characteristics are not necessarily like other sailing ships doesnt seem like a great idea and may be something which needs to be addressed....

Nobody on this forum used the word "syncophants" in what regards qualifying the crew. That word was used on the gCaptain forum by Fragrat ((chief…I have sailed just about everything) and PMC (1600 master), the one you quoted here as having a different opinion on gCaptain forum, agreed with the qualification. More five users "liked" that post on that forum.

quote:

Originally Posted by Fraqrat
"In the TSC it appears that each vessel master has his on cult of personality and his fair share of sycophants for crew."
PMC: "Thank you for your timely illustration of my point"

The Bounty fiasco and an undeserved black eye

I used the phrase " cult of personality" as a possible explanation of why sailors, that apparently had some experience, followed the Captain in what was obviously a very risky and dangerous voyage without even making some questions or expressing some doubts.

Regards

Paulo

[PCP]

Originally Posted by aeventyr60

You guys still flogging a dead horse? Geez....

and you lose time reading it

Regards

Paulo

[MarkofSeaLife]

Originally Posted by PCP

18th century ship:

as collier


Paulo

I think colliers were very stoutly built. That's why they were used for exploration. Endevour was one too.

The 1960 was not a replica! It was a movie prop designed to be sunk for the final scene in the film... But Brando threw a hissy fit.
It was designed to look good on film, and probably proportioned to fit into standard camera lenses. And deck space to mount a camera, and shrouds so it looks like actors are tough climbing them.

It's like movie cars. They may SOUND life they have a v12 under the bonnet but actually it's a Korean engine that does 1,000 mpg and fits Califorias emissions rules!

[JulieMor]

Originally Posted by Capt.aaron

I'd hire a skilled amature carpenter to build a deck or even an addition, not to manuver a derick crane on top of a sky scraper with city traffic below. To get an AB unlimited licsense you need 1080 day's at sea on a vessel with some tonnage on it. That's a lot of weekends. That's the minimum a watch keeper should have on a ship the size of the Bounty.
The Phantom had some land lubb'n board of director's seal there fate. And A young Captain who did'nt have the ball's to take control of his ship.

I agree that there should be minimal requirements for certain positions on a ship, such as the captain of a passenger vessel. But time alone doesn't make a wise, skilled professional. I had one guy on my crew who had 15 years in the electrical trade but had no mechanical aptitude. He was all thumbs. He had to be watched constantly or I'd have a mess on my hands to clean up. BTW, he was also one of the most critical of non-professionals.

In my post, I was replying to the comments on the pro forum calling recreational boaters foolish. All we really know about them is they identify themselves as professionals. So placing a higher degree of importance to what they say over what anyone here says may be an erroneous assumption.

But yes, absolutely, learning in a system that promotes expertise, safety and professionalism is by far preferable to being self-taught.

[nolatom]

Originally Posted by Capt.aaron

Ship builder's should build the strongest and well built ships they can. If they are building a replica of a 19th century wooden tall ship, the should'nt just go for the look but the integrity which which those ships were built. Look at the house's that ship's carpenters built in Key West, they are are still there, I rent a little studio in a house that was built circa 1860 by ship's carpenters. And the ships should be decommisioned when the beam's are rotten and the plank's are old and butter. The Bounty was OLD. my Grandpa was a hell of a football player when he was 20, He wasn't playing in the big leagues at 40, or 50, or 60.....The tug I'm working on this hitch was built in 1960 and it's about to be taken out of service. And yes, there need's to be a governing body that say's no, that old boat has no buisness going to sea with volenteers, payed crew or students. One problem is our Coast Guard is comprised of a bunch of pencil pushing Land Lubbe'rs. Any one that has the sea coursing through there veins would never join the coast Gaurd. My neighborhood pub is a block from the gate of the Key West Coast Guard Station. Ask any of the Coasties sitting in there where they are from. 9 times out of 10 they are from a land locked state. We are pushing for a Merchant Marine Body to Govern the Merchant Marine's because the coast Guard Has there prority's all out of whack. As for meesing with Huricanes, It's just stupid. Somebody Hired the Bounty Captain, I'm betting someone with little or no experience at sea, there fore he could convince them he was capable of making wize decsisions, didn't his wife say's he had been in lot's of huricanes?

Captain,

I wouldn't try to debate with you who has the sea coursing through his veins and who doesn't, but historically, you indeed used to have a government agency comprised of merchies and not the Coast Guard, it was the Old Bureau of Marine Inspection and Navigation (the BMIN). But they were taken off the helm in the mid-1940s due to rampant back-scratching and corruption, and their duties given to the Coast Guard (marine inspection, licensing, investigation) and Customs (documentation).

Be careful what you wish for... just sayin'

[Capt.aaron]

Originally Posted by JulieMor

I agree that there should be minimal requirements for certain positions on a ship, such as the captain of a passenger vessel. But time alone doesn't make a wise, skilled professional. I had one guy on my crew who had 15 years in the electrical trade but had no mechanical aptitude. He was all thumbs. He had to be watched constantly or I'd have a mess on my hands to clean up. BTW, he was also one of the most critical of non-professionals.

In my post, I was replying to the comments on the pro forum calling recreational boaters foolish. All we really know about them is they identify themselves as professionals. So placing a higher degree of importance to what they say over what anyone here says may be an erroneous assumption.

But yes, absolutely, learning in a system that promotes expertise, safety and professionalism is by far preferable to being self-taught.

Well, it's not time alone, it's time coupled with a mother of a test. That 1600 ton test makes peoples head spin. I've only done up to the 200 ton and I had smoke comming out of my ears, the room next to mine was guy's preping for the 1600 and they were sad and worried at lunch break. Any body remember the U.S Air Craft Carrier arguing with the Canadian Light house that he had the right of way and should move, and light house keeper telling him he could stand on if he wished but moving the light house would be next to impossable. I know some unlimited dudes that are morons. Even the simplist of large tonnage Captains has an advantage over the hobby sailor in regaurds to descisions made at sea, if not through inherant intellagence, than through absorbtion of being out there day and night for months at a time, under the scrutiny of proticals enforced by the employer and commercial shipping regulations.

[Capt.aaron]

Originally Posted by nolatom

Captain,

I wouldn't try to debate with you who has the sea coursing through his veins and who doesn't, but historically, you indeed used to have a government agency comprised of merchies and not the Coast Guard, it was the Old Bureau of Marine Inspection and Navigation (the BMIN). But they were taken off the helm in the mid-1940s due to rampant back-scratching and corruption, and their duties given to the Coast Guard (marine inspection, licensing, investigation) and Customs (documentation).

Be careful what you wish for... just sayin'

AH THE GOOD OLD DAY'S. I'd rather a merchie, scratching my back than a Coastie sticking me in the rear. I think in this day of information the corruption would not be as rampant. My wifes uncle is a captain in the Coast Guard and you may be surprised at some of the shananigans that go on in that institution. What's that saying, absolute power corrupt's absolutly.

[chef2sail]

Nobody on this forum used the word "syncophants" in what regards qualifying the crew.

I didnt pull the word synchophant out of thin air. Wether it was originally posted on gCaptain or quoted by a poster on here to make their point it is the same as posting it IMHO. Whoever posts it agrees with it or they wouldnt quote it. Please stop nitpicking my posts over words, like who said sychophant or the REAL meaning in the kinds english of the word bash ( BTW a poster on gCaptian also used the same word), It detracts from the intention of the post and the constant nitpicking really is irrelevant.

Now back to our regular scheduled message

But time alone doesn't make a wise, skilled professional-JulieMor

.

So true, I can think of many instances like this. It was stated well here that just passing a CG multiple choice test by itself doesnt qualify you for anything. (I know there is an experiencial part to this also in terms of hours/ days)

We have also seen experience doesnt mean it also. The wrong experience could lead to a false sense of security...and too much expeience could lead to complacency.

So what do we do...check out people before we board their ship for a quick sail in Baltimore harbor? I certainly would be more thorough checking out the Captain as a crew memeber on an ocean going passage like this vessel set out on. Would that research have shown his willingness to set sail into the path of a hurricane?

Here is the real question....I have a feeling I know what most of your answers are but I will ask......

Had you been a signed up member of the crew, with your present state of experience and knowledge....would you have stepped foot on the Bounty and left the dock with Captain Walbridge that evening? If not what would you have done? Would you step off and walk away quietly? Would you confront the Captain and tell him your misgivings and not sail, would you tell the others they should not go? Would you call the home office and tell of thier misgivings? Would you call the CG and let them know the Captain likes to chase Hurricanes and was hell bent on chasing Sandy?

What would you really DO?

Dave