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  #21  
Old 11-04-2012
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Re: Lesson from Sandy

I don't know, chef. Calling someone a moron is the same as calling them "beloved by god" since after all, the good lord chose to make SO many of them.
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  #22  
Old 11-04-2012
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Re: Lesson from Sandy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogwatch View Post
Staying aboard is simply an act of foolish bravado and we should have contempt for it.
Sorry, but little purpose is served by painting such nonsense with so broad a brush... My feet would have stayed drier on Monday night had I stayed on my boat, than in my house...

Every situation is different, there's no One Size Fits All... Had Sandy been forecast to make landfall as a Cat 3 or above, I likely still would have been aboard my boat...

Only difference being, instead of in Barnegat Bay, I would have been on the Hudson River, 120 miles upriver from the Battery...

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  #23  
Old 11-04-2012
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Re: Lesson from Sandy

Quote:
Do you think that you were the only one who has been in danger of a hurricane? Does it occur to you that a good many of those people who were behind computer screens for Sandy and not in extreme danger for this particular storm may have experienced equal or worse storms in the past?-NC330
No i agree with you there are a lot of people on SN with experience and much more than me.But at the same time dont minimize others or my personal experience and our ability to make well thought out decisions different than yours or others

Quote:
In my opinion, you are trying to justify an action (staying on the boat to adjust lines in the path of a hurricane) as a good thing. There are many other boat owners who believe that protecting one's life is better than protecting a boat that is in a slip.NC330
I dont feel an need to justify my decision until I was set upon by a few posters as I reported the play by play events which were occuring as I was involved in the storm

Quote:
I also believe that posts encouraging staying on a boat to adjust lines could actually endanger lives of newbies or others who don't understand what these storms can doNC330
.

I never encouraged other to do as I did. I merely reported constantly on what I was doing, the storm conditions where I was as they were changing every few hours, and what my experiences were. Is there harm in that? In fact I said it is the individual;s right to make a decision based on the facts and conditions that they were experiencing at their boat. These facts and conditions could not be determined by someone sitting b efore a computer screen in Ontario Canada or North Carolina. I would not give blanket advice to anyone as I dont know their skilss or have information as to what was happening where they were nor to their ability to have alternative ways of dealing with the situation

Quote:
I'm sorry, but you didn't get the blunt and full force of this hurricane...you were sheltered, and the storm passed north of youNC330
That was apparent and the reason THAT I STAYED ON THE BOAT duh....Had I been on the north side of the storm I would have taken different action and secured as best I could and gone 200 yards to higher ground. My roomate from college is a meterologist and works at the NHC in Florida. I was in constant contact with him every 2 hours for a 36 hour period thorugh the critical time when the storm was making its way north from the Hatteras area to landfall due east of where I was.( If you drew a line due east of baltimore it is Atlantic City, NJ. When we realized the storm would be ablout 30 miles north of us once it crossed over the Delaware River I knew there was no danger in my staying on the boat through the remainder of the storm. Again I reiterate at any time I felt that the storm was going to put me in danger I would have given no second thought going ton higher ground 200 yards away where the danger of falling trees would be my only danger instead of rising waters. The wind in this storm was not the greatest danger....the storm surge was. Thats obvious by what happened

Quote:
To everyone who thinks staying on the boat when you don't have to should reflect long and hard on those pictures of masses of boats swept together in jumbled pile at some locations. It didn't happen at every location, but who amoung us can say which marina will be destroyed and which will not?NC330
Of course that is correct. Evaluate your situation based upon all the best information you can find and make your decision accordingly. I would assume you do that in all situations and weather ones especially. Dont let someone behind a computer make a blanket statement telling you what to do because they dont know your experience, your conditions, your availabilities, or your alternatives. All options should be considered and the one which s the least risky in terms of safety should be taken. If you have no experience in dealing with heavy weather then you decide that way. If you feel that you are safe, but want to gain some experience safely, then decide that way. You know what is best for you after all not some internet pundit. There are many books, videos available to learn this also. What amazes me and may make me rethink is that a large amount of boats which were on land were destroyed, followed by boats tied to floating docks when the surge floted the docks off the pilings and slung them ashore or into other boats. The boats on mooring seemed to survive better as did the boats on fixed docks.

I am very suprised at the personal attacks and reactions. But most of it comes from the usual sources I have oft described how I have helped my wife gain blue water experience over the last 5 years of posting through measured safe steps. These have encouraged her and helped her gain increasing experience in handling winds in a strong range as well as weather offshore which is far different from the Chesapeake. It was how I was taught and gained experience. This thread is not about me so lets try and not make it that way. I dont want to continue to answer comments directed at me, but I will not allow them to stand if they are false or denigrating in nature.

Again I repeat ther biggest lesson in this is to help our fellow citizens In NJ and NY recover from the storm. Call one...contribute to their releif. They need you.

dave
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Last edited by chef2sail; 11-04-2012 at 11:23 PM.
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  #24  
Old 11-04-2012
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Re: Lesson from Sandy

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
.

True i only related my experience as this event was unfolding.Bujt I also have mentioned a transatlantic experience pre loran in a force 7 storm. If you need me to I can expand upon my over 10,000 miles of blue water sailing, I did not feel that was necessary



Hmmm you must not have read or disreagarded your friend Frogwatches comments about the "Darwin awards" with attacking quuotes like



how convienent
Well since we're quoting......


I thought you had left?

Fond Fairwell

But since you're still here,
and since you're discussing attacks, remember this?
i need help bad

Chef, since you are so quick to trot out your self-proclaimed "serious sailor" "10 000 mile" plus cruising creds, (your words, not mine)
How many hurricanes have you sailed through, sat through, or weathered?
Answer: NONE.
Force 7: Near gale. Please.

I don't know Frogwatch any more than i know you. My interaction with both of you has been through that medium you dismiss as "the internet" when someone calls you out on your crude, or abusive, or argumentative,or incorrect, or inaccurate, or just plain unpleasant posts.
But, by his own testimony, he has a half dozen named storms under his belt...
you have a miss on one.
oh, and as, YOu said, a transatlantic force 7. Pre loran... tell me, were storms stronger back then?

As i said earlier, your experiences are both valid... but some apparently handle validity better than others.
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  #25  
Old 11-04-2012
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Re: Lesson from Sandy

Quote:
thought you had left?BlJones
I had, but decided I shouldnt be chased off by the likes of you

Also I was encouraged by almost all of the other moderators to just take a break, and rethink it and that my comments were always welcome. That its only the internet. I did that and have acted accordingly and reserve the right to do and post as much as anyone as long as I am a memebr of the forum.

In addition my wife and I will continue to host the Annual Chesapeake Rondevous at my club the second weekend in June ( this will be the fifth year) to encourage commradiere of sailors here. BLJones, you are invited should youwish to attend.

Quote:
YOu said, a transatlantic force 7. Pre loran... tell me, were storms stronger back then? BLJones
Not sure what you are asking here. I was on A Baltic 55 or 52 when I was 28 on a delivery with 5 other men from from Flamouth Cornwall England to Portland Maine. Storm was hit about the 5th day at sea with increasing winds starting at 35 to sustained at 60+ so it started as a force 7 near gale. Waves atrted at 20 ft and grew through the next day.

As far as my attacking....you accusing me of that is like the pot calling the kettle black. You are reknown for your acidic remarks to people sir.

Sir, I dont wish to continue this as it does no good and is not what I am about and not why I am here. Should you continue to seek me out on my posts and go after me I will do as I have been instructed...report you.

Again feel free to come to the Rondevous in June, you are cordially invited.

dave
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  #26  
Old 11-05-2012
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Re: Lesson from Sandy

R.I.P. HMS Bounty – Decision Making at Sea - Sailing, Simplicity, and the Pursuit of Happiness
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  #27  
Old 11-05-2012
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Re: Lesson from Sandy

So Chef, since you have decided not to be "chased off," as you put it, do you plan to apologize the the posters and moderators that you insulted in your departure note, or are we all supposed to take the high road you repeatedly refuse to travel and forget it ever happened?

If this is not "what you are about", chef, then why do you jab at anyone who disagrees with you? if you can't stand your opinion being challenged, if your ego is so tied up in being right, maybe discussion forums aren't for you.

Thank you for your cordial invitation to close yet another less than cordial post.
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  #28  
Old 11-05-2012
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Re: Lesson from Sandy

These are my opinions.

I am no expert on storms. However, I have done (from memory): Gabrielle, Charlie, Gene (or Jean I dont know), Francis, Ivan, and recently Debby. I think there were some other skirts, but whatever. Gabrielle and Debby I stayed aboard for. Charlie I evacuated (I was in the Cape and I think Charlie was Cat III), the others came across so it wasn't as bad as it could have been. With the exception of Charlie, most were brushes or not terrible storms (though Debby simply would not go away).

For me, I will generally stay aboard up to about a Cat I depending on the slip or situation. A lot depends on the protection of the Marina, where the wind will come, storm surge, and the type of moorage. There are a lot of factors. I wholy agree with Chef that there are things you can do during a storm to protect yourself and the boat... to a point. Chafing is a real issue, and if you are on a fixed dock, you can run your lines up and down depending on the surge.

However, about 50-60 sustained, it starts becoming very difficult to do anything on the boat (which includes getting off). Not only is the boat heeled over a lot, but you are rolling in the seas too. I found this true whether in a protected marina or open backbay. It is extremely difficult to add any more lines or fix the ones that are chafing. THe force on them is incredible. Also, about that wind speed stuff starts flying through the air.

When the winds exceed that number to around Cat I, you are more or less there for the ride. At Cat II, it is becoming very dangerous. At Cat III, it is life and death. For those that would try to stay aboard in a Cat III, good luck. WHen Charlie was done, it looked like a bomb had gone off and I mean that. THe force of the wind is incredible. Trees (not branches but whole trees) will be flying through the air along with roofs, 2x4's, large sheet metal pieces, and countless other things. If any of them hit you, it is unlikely you would survive. I have never been beyond Cat III conditions. But my experience is that it is pure survival and I would not want to be on a boat of any size during that.

The issue staying aboard in these storms is not just how well you have protected your boat, but how well others around you have. This becomes especially true in anchorages, though we inevitably end up saving boats in the marina. To the best of my memory, I have never been in a storm where at least one boat did not try to sink or would have had immediate action not been taken. When in an anchorage, you will be lucky not to have other boats dragging all around you. For example, after Gabrielle, I bet half the boats drug and were sitting on the shore. It was a mine field of boats and debris.

Another issue with staying aboard a boat is that you don't just get hurricane winds or surge - you also get tornados. I remember during Gabrielle (and Debby), tornados came down very uncomfortably close to where we were. I cannot imagine being in a boat durig a tornado, but suspect that would be pure survival conditions.

During Gabrielle, when the surge came in, getting off our boat would have been very dangerous and difficult. At some point, you are where you are and stuck with the decision you made. In Florida, they shut down the bridges at 35 sustained (a lesson we learned too late). A comment was made about fixed docks weathering better. I guess I might agree with that assuming floatings came off their pilings, but I also know the tops of many fixed docks went under water and it was a challenge keeping your boat off of them and making out the "center" of the slip. WIth all the bouncing around, coming down on a piling could be disastrous.

I would hate to give anyone advice whether to stay aboard or not. I know where my threshold is but I have been through quite a few storms and prepped the boat for many more that luckily stayed well away. The decision to stay aboard is a difficult one, but I will say that the power of the wind becomes very incredible and you will reach a point depnding on wind speed where there is nothing you can do but stay below and hope for the best. Many Floridians know this from experience and that is likely where Frogwatche's statements came from. Chef is right too about things that can be done (up to a point). No matter your decision, all I can say is good luck. You will have to live (or die) with the consequences either way.

Brian
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  #29  
Old 11-05-2012
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Re: Lesson from Sandy

Quote:
do you plan to apologize the the posters and moderators that you insulted in your departure note, or are we all supposed to take the high road you repeatedly refuse to travel and forget it ever happened?-bljones
No one else seems to have felt insulted or asked for an apology. If they did I would handle that one on one. If you are asking for one the answer is no for you

Quote:
If this is not "what you are about", chef, then why do you jab at anyone who disagrees with you? if you can't stand your opinion being challenged, if your ego is so tied up in being right, maybe discussion forums aren't for you
.

You seem to to let things bother you too much. See I have taken your advice from a past bljones post 7/14/20123.

Quote:
Lighten up. i don't take myself, or most of the rest of you, nearly as seriously as you do.
Maybe you should follow your own advice here.

Sir, you continue to seek out my posts and create responses which are personal in nature. This is different from doing it to everyone, you have decided to single me out. This is a violation of the TOS of joining the forum. Please refrain from this in the future.

Back to the original purpose of this thread before hijacking. Lesson learned from Sandy.

When choosing a place to keep you boat ( marina, club, private dock) or moving it to in a storm. Which is a better choice fixed or gfloating.

There appears to have been a large number of boats destroyed or damaged in marinas with floating docks as opposed to marinas with fixed docks. On the Chesapeake the greater number of marinas, or individual people docks are fixed. I would assume this is mainly because the relatively small tidal change vs the Jersey Shore, LI Sound and New England. One of the factors for for marinas with the floating docks is that the docks themselves float off and bash the boats.

When tying up in a place with floating docks and a storm comming I would assume you tie to pilings and fixed assets vs the dock itself. Was this the case in this last storm for your boat if you stayed in the water? Is there a way you can protect your boat should the dock piece float over the top of the piling?


When in a fixed dock, the highest points of the pilings with something to prevent the line from detaching itself over the top of the piling. This way no matter high the water gets you can adjust your lines by playing out line and still stay in the center of your slip or tied to your dock. Did any of you tie up in this situation during the storm and what were the results.


Dave
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Last edited by chef2sail; 11-05-2012 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 11-05-2012
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Re: Lesson from Sandy

okay, back on ignore.
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