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  #11  
Old 11-05-2012
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Re: Question regarding Rocna Anchor's Roll Bar

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchbrown View Post
I probably should not have replied to your post since i have no experience with the Rocna and your question was about the Rocna and it's roll bar, but the Fortress is a new generation anchor as well, and in this area i think its worth a close look

Mitch
Minor point, but I'd hardly classify the Fortress as a "New Generation Anchor"

Great anchor, no question, but it's basically a lightweight, adjustable, stowable Danforth - using a time-tested design that's been around for decades...
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Re: Question regarding Rocna Anchor's Roll Bar

Thanks for the additional responses. It's great to hear from users.
Not to be argumentative or troll-y, I just don't get the dissatisfaction with CQRs at least in the PNW. I've been using a 45lb.er on both a Mariah 31 Pacific Seacraft) and our now for sale Fisher 37. We've never dragged after an initial set and have left the boat for hours even at times when an unpredicted gale came up. We've been anchored out near Johnstone Strait
in 4 ft. fetch for three days and nights with nowhere else to go and we did fine. (Actually the dock at Shoal Bay on E. Thurlow was only about 50' away
but there was no way to get there safely).
That kind of success over 3 decades makes me extremely reluctant to switch to a new "gen" anchor although I wouldn't mind borrowing and testing one to see if I'd feel about using one.


Thanks again. I'm very glad to have found this forum. One of the best around!
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Old 11-05-2012
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Re: Question regarding Rocna Anchor's Roll Bar

I used to use a CQR....the Rocna beats it hands down...I also trust the Rocnas ability to reset on a turn more. Fortress is not a new gen anchor.
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Old 11-05-2012
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Re: Question regarding Rocna Anchor's Roll Bar

I have a genuine Chinese made Rocna 15 (33lbs) hanging off the bow of my 35' sailboat. I have 25' of 3/8" chain and 200' of 5/8 double braid as anchor rode.

It works like a champ every time - even when I screw up, and only put it out with 4:1 scope.

The biggest challenge with this anchor was retrieving it, until I rigged a 35' retrieval line to attachment B in the photo below;


I was very disappointed with Rocna and the way that they changed their specifications to a lower grade steel when they moved manufacturing to China. I was also dumbfounded at the way they royally screwed up on handling the situation.

That said, I am still happy with my anchor.

BTW - below is an article in it's entirety, referenced on the Rocna website about the Rocna quality "issue";

Source: https://plus.ibinews.com/article/x0j..._gets_polishe/
Quote:
Rehabilitating Rocna: The tarnished anchor brand gets polished under a new owner
By Michael Verdon
Thu Apr 12 2012, 14:43 PM Print Email
Canada Metal’s latest announcement, to warranty against bending, is designed to restore confidence in the Rocna name

A year ago, the highly polished image of the Rocna anchor brand was being tarnished in sailing chatrooms across multiple time zones. The patented design, popular among sailors around the world, had come in for a public drubbing by both consumers and competitors because of allegations that Rocna had used steel in the fabrication of the anchors shanks that did not meet the stated manufacturing specification. Photos showed up on the sailing websites of Rocna anchors with twisted shanks. Some were genuine pictures of warranty claims while others were of a more questionable origin.

Competitors also jumped into the fray, alleging Hold Fast Anchors, the New Zealand-based corporation that held the manufacturing rights to Rocna brand from January 2007 to September 2011, knew about the weaker grade of steel used in manufacturing after it moved production from New Zealand to China.

Rocna’s former production manager also alleged Hold Fast knew the anchors would not meet stated specifications for tensile strength posted on the Rocna website. It is estimated that up to 700 units could have been affected.

The controversy seemed to hit a fever pitch in August 2011, when US mega-retailer West Marine sent out a “product specification notice” to clients about 13 Rocna anchor sizes. “In West Marine’s view, it is a certainly a ‘bummer’ that Rocna produced anchors with steel of a lesser grade than that called for on their website and that had been previously published,” said the letter, referring its customers back to Rocna for technical questions. West Marine also offered a refund to owners who were concerned about Rocna anchors covered under the notice.

The product specification notice, incorrectly labeled a “recall” by the sailing chat rooms, did not help Rocna’s image. Many sailors praised West Marine for notifying customers, but were also suspicious of Rocna for selling a potentially life-saving piece of equipment that did not meet stated specifications.

“We've seen plenty of F.U.D. (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) laid out by the various vendor marketing teams who represent anchor manufacturers on this and other sites,” wrote “Shrew” on CruisersForum.com. “I'd like to see the same manufacturer stand up and stand behind their products now as they have done so vehemently when trying to market them to us.”

Canada Metal Pacific (CMP) knew it had to do exactly that, long before it acquired manufacturing rights to the Rocna brand. The Vancouver-based firm announced it would now be manufacturing and distributing Rocna anchors in late September 2011, about eight weeks after the West Marine letter went out. But CMP’s due diligence on Rocna had started months earlier, after CMP and Hold Fast had started talking about a potential acquisition.

“We were fully aware of the challenges that faced the Rocna brand before we completed the purchase,” says John Mitchell, president of CMP. “There was a lot of misinformation out there about what actually happened with Rocna. Our due diligence indicated that it wasn’t as clandestine as what appeared in the public domain.”

In February 2012, Mitchell told IBI that only nine warranty returns for bent shanks had been received. “There was a significant bending situation on an anchor in Venice,” he says. “It was a prototype anchor that was manufactured in China, and a lack of process control by the previous company allowed it to get through. But even with this faulty production run, there are still over 12,000 Rocna anchors in the field.”

CMP had acquired a public relations problem along with the Rocna line. Mitchell knew that going into the deal, but figured that the anchor’s assets were worth the effort it would take to rehabilitate the brand.

“We acquired it for several reasons,” says Mitchell. “First, it had a very loyal following. I was blown away by the loyalty to the product—sailors are quite vocal about the products they like. But beyond that, Rocna performed better than any anchor that we tested.”

The anchor also fit in well with CMP’s long-term strategy for its marine division, which includes Martyr Anodes, Octopus Autopilot Drive Systems, Intellisteer, and CMP-Titan brand marine chain. “We got into the chain business about four years ago due to the absence of a high quality alternative given that there is now only one North American based chain manufacturer left,” says Mitchell. “In most retail stores or chandleries, chain is located next to the anchors. We had a few customers who asked about sourcing other products from us, so we started looking at opportunities in the anchor category—by either developing our own or looking for acquisitions of companies that would meet our long term strategy.”

CMP, in fact, has been part of the marine industry for more than 25 years, having first manufactured aluminum anodes for Outboard Marine Corp, followed by other OEM clients like Volvo-Penta, Yamaha and Mercury Marine. That led to manufacturing Martyr replacement anodes for the aftermarket, and eventual worldwide distribution of its marine products.

CMP’s chain and anchor businesses will eventually lead to a single-system solution for anchoring that will include a new CMP anchor rode (combination rope/chain). “We’ve worked quite closely with Maxwell and Lewmar, the leaders in the industry, to test the rode,” says Mitchell. “They are concerned with quality. We are just as concerned, and wanted to make sure we get it right the first time.”

While creating a single-manufacturer anchoring system is part of its long-term strategy, CMP has been busy trying to repair the damage to the Rocna brand since last September.

Mitchell immediately instituted a policy of transparency after acquiring manufacturing rights from Rocna founder and owner, Peter Smith, who licenses the brand to outside companies. The Rocna website told owners CMP would “find and replace” all “suspect” products, add additional controls to the existing manufacturing process, restore confidence in the classification process, invest in inventory so product was plentiful, and set up “timely and accurate communications” about the brand.

Peter Smith also agreed to travel with the CMP team to meet OEMs and sailors at boat shows to explain why the new Rocna would be a reliable choice going forward. Smith, a guru of anchor designers who independently tested the suspect Chinese-made Rocnas, will also verify information on the Rocna website. “Canada Metal is a company with clear and high-quality standards and is an excellent choice for the future of Rocna,” Smith wrote on his own website, PeterSmith.net.nz: anchors & anchoring, photos from Patagonia & Antarctica.

The memos and transparency were designed to restore confidence in the brand. But CMP took another, more concrete step in January, announcing that Rocna’s lifetime warranty would now include “bending or deformation,” in addition to breakage. “We’re one of a few anchor companies that does that,” says Mitchell.

Mitchell said that the company tested the Rocna line during its due diligence phase, even hiring metallurgists. From a theoretical standpoint, we were confident that the anchors were safe and sound, but we had to clearly communicate our confidence to the marketplace,” he says.

After the acquisition, CMP moved manufacturing control of the anchor line to its wholly owned facility in Ningbo, China. While Hold Fast’s original move to China was the source of the brand’s problems, Mitchell says CMP’s facility in Ningbo has “advanced engineering” that monitors quality control. “In the five months we’ve been manufacturing the anchors, we’ve made significant changes and improvements to the process controls,” says Mitchell.

Mitchell says year-over-year sales of Rocna anchors are up, and the company has hired Derema Group to handle its distribution in the US market. “We met with our distributors at METS and, to a man, they are passionate about this product,” says Mitchell. “We’re also even stronger than ever before with West Marine. We’re now developing a focus on the powerboat market.”

Even with a rehabilitated brand, though, Mitchell does not see a significant recovery in the recreational marine market until 2013 or 2014. Until then, CMP’s strategy is to rebuild the Rocna brand and take market share from competitors.

“We’re trying to reposition the product by providing best value; by this I mean we will provide our customers with the world’s best performance at a reasonable cost,” says Mitchell. “You see guys at boat shows selling anchors in a sandbox, but they don’t have distribution or support. We have global distribution and will support all of our products with particular focus on the safety and security of the end user.”
I have NO affiliation with Rocna, other than as a customer
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Last edited by eherlihy; 11-05-2012 at 05:14 PM. Reason: disclaimer
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Old 11-05-2012
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Re: Question regarding Rocna Anchor's Roll Bar

Quote:
Originally Posted by eherlihy View Post

The biggest challenge with this anchor was retrieving it, until I rigged a 35' retrieval line to attachment B in the photo below;

There is a very, very easy alternative to this. I see all too often folks trying to break anchors free with their brute and muscles. while this might have worked okay on a CQR it does not work on the newer anchors.

1- Retrieve rode by motoring forward on it and collecting it as the boat moves towards the anchor.. Let the boat do the work.

2- Once you get close to 1:1 scope SNUB the rode and let the boat break the anchor from the bottom. With the Rocna, Spade, Manson Supreme or Mantus this may require a trip back to the cockpit to put it in gear.

3- Once the anchor is free from the bottom and the boat did 90% of the work the last 10% is on you to raise it the 10-20 feet to the roller... Simple!!!

We have a windlass and rarely if ever use it. I let the boat do all the work including breaking the anchor free. As a last step I often slowly drag the anchor below the water to clean it before hoisting it the rest of the way.

As for the OP there is one part missing in all this. A dragging un-set anchor is very often dragging on the surface of the sea floor. A properly set hoop style anchor, in most bottoms, will have the hoop completely buried. Diving on ours I have yet to see the hoop... Fouling your rode is far more likely than threading a needle in a haystack..
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 11-05-2012 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 11-05-2012
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Re: Question regarding Rocna Anchor's Roll Bar

Even with a manual windlass I use the method Mainesail eennumerated to break ours free to as thes suckers really bury themselves. If I am anchoring in an area I worry about logs, rocks, or think someone may run it over etc I do put a float on her through the c hole. In switching tides sometimes I use a kellet ( 10 lb mushroom anchor) also.

Last year I stuck the anchor in a 2 foot square of rebar when anchoring and had a hell of a time getting it up...when it surfaced these was a gasp in the anchorage as 50 lbs of iron came up with my anchor.

Dave
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Re: Question regarding Rocna Anchor's Roll Bar

chef2sail, would you mind elaborating? How things "feel" or "look" to you when you're anchoring and anchored in blows? Can you or your boat feel any very definite differences between your old CQR and the Rocna? Do you feel, for example, a significantly more robust bite when you place your hand on your chain, feel the boat come 'round or stop much more abruptly with the Rocna?

I looked one over again on the docks today and even felt it over :-0

Cheers.
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Re: Question regarding Rocna Anchor's Roll Bar

We have never had a windlass and have always used the 'snub and let the boat lift' the anchor as MS explained.

On only one occasion have we had to fight the hook to the surface inch by inch, ultimately finding that we'd snagged a 1" steel logging cable of indeterminate length (it made it to the surface without slipping free, so I figure it was twice the 40 or so foot depth.)
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Re: Question regarding Rocna Anchor's Roll Bar

Thanks Maine Sail and eherlihy for your detailed info. and link.
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Re: Question regarding Rocna Anchor's Roll Bar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt. Grimek View Post
chef2sail, would you mind elaborating? How things "feel" or "look" to you when you're anchoring and anchored in blows? Can you or your boat feel any very definite differences between your old CQR and the Rocna? Do you feel, for example, a significantly more robust bite when you place your hand on your chain, feel the boat come 'round or stop much more abruptly with the Rocna?

I looked one over again on the docks today and even felt it over :-0

Cheers.
Back in early September I had a chance to load up my 35 Mantus, 33 Rocna and my 35 CQR. I only had a couple of hours so the other anchors stayed at home. I used a twin screw 30' sport fishing boat with 450HP to pull test these anchors. I own a 5000 pound rated digital load cell that was used for measurement.

With the Mantus and Rocna I easily approached where I thought I might pull the cleat from the vessel, and being my brothers boat, I decided I'd be nice and back off...

I registered over 4500 pounds twice, once with each hoop style anchor. The 450 HP could not muster that entirely and I had to get sort of a momentum start. The Rocna and Mantus set within inches, first try for both, and never dragged.

The CQR took 6 tries to get it to hold beyond 200-300 pounds. When it finally was "set" it dragged slowly through the mud bottom never breaking 500-600 pounds of steady load. It had a couple short blips over 800 but I suspect that was rocks or debris it dragged through on the bottom...

I had intended to make a video, as I often do, but when I got there I had forgotten my SD card in my computer..... I plan to repeat this next season when my brothers boat goes back into the water.

So to answer your question yes they do feel different both in the way they set, which is usually instantaneously, and like you are tied to a concrete dock, and they don't budge once set..

I used CQR's for nearly 20 years. Having now owned a Manson Supreme, Spade, Rocna and a Mantus I can honestly say there is no comparison between them and a CQR in initial setting, re-setting and sheer holding power...
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 11-06-2012 at 03:25 PM.
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