The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy - Page 3 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree84Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #21  
Old 11-08-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 9,450
Thanks: 10
Thanked 155 Times in 141 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingNwing View Post
Minne, I generally respect your opinions and we generally end up on the same side in discussions. But if you go back to your post #6, you've referred to "known facts" and not "opinions."
Thanks for helping clarify our disconnect. I was referring to things we do know, not that we know everything, nor leveraging off things we don't. We know the weather forecasts, we know the ship's track, we know what the crew said in the interview, we know this was an 18th century hull design and more.

I'm not suggesting its everything we need to know, but its enough for me to form an opinion that the loss of life was avoidable. I better understand why you read me differently and why the emotion this thread was started to explore. Thanks.
wingNwing likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #22  
Old 11-08-2012
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,050
Thanks: 30
Thanked 57 Times in 53 Posts
Rep Power: 8
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

Roger,

You are the first logical measured person I have seen in this so far with the experience in incidents like this to post. I do not think that anyone on here feels the Captain was without fault in this.

Quote:
I don't get upset about the uninformed things I see posted about events such as this. Thinking about how things like this happen is important and can make everyone safer if they realize that the same decision making dynamics are relevant to a fair summer day on Long Island Sound-.Roger Long
So true...good point

I have a number of questions which I feel you may be the only one here has the real qualifications to answer. Understand I also take at face value you are who you have stated after all this is a social media site. Your insight will help educate me and probably a few others on here.

Could you briefly explain how an investigation of an incident proceeds?
Who formally investigates?
What are some of the questions they may be asking?
What safegaurds are in place to prevent a rush to judgement on causation?
Does the CG do a good job of investigating incident such as this? If not who should.
How long would it take ( roughly) for an initial report assuming no more immediate
danger for like vessels?
Why continue with the investigation if it is all the Captains responsibility in your mind/
Who would you ask to testify assuming a formal investigation?
What credence would you put on the interview with the Captain stating his love of
chasing hurricanes?
What safegaurds are in place to challenge and investigate situations similar to this
when a captain takes a vessel out in unsafe condtions. Would this investigation take
place even if the Bounty had made it safely to Florida? What/ who triggers this.

In a situation like this where you personally as well as many the rest of us feel the
captain has obvious responsibilty, but and that is different from fault even
though he automatically assumes responsibility because of his position. How do you
determine fault.

What I mean by this I have to use an accident in an airline crash as an example. The captain who flies it has the ultimate responsibility of the plane as you stated. Assumed responsibility of the plane when he took the controls and took off in a thunderstorm with vivid lightening. Initially it appeared to observers the plane was struck by lightening and exploded. One of the causitive factors of the actual crash/ explosion on the plane is traced back to falsified maintainence records on replacement of wiresin the fuel tank which was the direct cause of the explosion. Where does this enter into you investigation.

Note: I am not saying here that this exonerates the Captain of the Bounty for leaving port . My question revolves around what happens or how is contributory factors are found.

Are they released immediately or do we wait for the entire investigation to conclude. If you were on the investigating board and you found that maintainence was falsified and contributed to the flooding for a fact, would you release the knowledge immediatey as you found it or would you withold it. If you would withold it...why?

Do you think that the advent in the last few years of the explosion of the instant social media sites can contribute or pressure investigators to missing vital factors?

Quote:
As for the position of respect for the families and avoiding further pain, the primary burden of responsibility the captain carried on his shoulders was bringing himself and crew back. An asteroid did not fall on this vessel. The families' pain grows out of the decisions made by her master. I doubt any of the families are reading these forums and the idea that what we say here could be significant in the enormous pain and loss they are now experiencing I think is inflation of our importance.- Roger Long
In my case it is not about the respect for the family but the rush to judgement which could possibly cloud or cause the investigation to miss important pertinant causation which has caused the angst in me.

Quote:
There can be no question, however, that, if the captain had elected to stay in New London, everyone would be alive today
Thats an obvious statement. That doesnt insure that they would have died the next time they went out in 30 knott winds as we dont know what specifically caused the ship to founder. Dont you think it is important to find that out also, or is it enough to just find the Captain at fault.

Personally going to the original premise of this thread by Julie, any emotional response I felt was directed at the rush to judgement as well as the cacophony of inaccurate posts by others taking thier own opinions and posting them as facts. I feel they may cloud or impede an accurate investigation.
wingNwing likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner

Last edited by chef2sail; 11-08-2012 at 10:15 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #23  
Old 11-08-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 9,450
Thanks: 10
Thanked 155 Times in 141 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

In my career, I've caught three or four employees stealing. One went to jail.

If I let my emotions get in the way, they would still be working for me. They all seemed like nice people with families and children. Being a nice person doesn't seem correlated to good/bad decisions.
chef2sail, JulieMor and YukonJack like this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #24  
Old 11-08-2012
Sal Paradise's Avatar
Captain Obvious
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: New York
Posts: 785
Thanks: 13
Thanked 23 Times in 23 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Sal Paradise is on a distinguished road
Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

Is there no check and balance? Being human we are all going to make mistakes. And what, if any, pressure did the owner place on the captain to go?

As for the emotions- I stood on her deck once, in 2006, and never forgot her or her crew. She docked at my workplace and I was involved with supply and support of her and also to a limited extent coordinating her activities. She was beautiful and meant many things to many people. I last saw her in Newport Rhode Island this summer.

The strong emotion is because this is such a classic tragedy. All the elements which produce strong emotion are there; beauty, hubris, loyalty, bravery, death, loss. The more we learn the worse it seesm to get. The youtube video really rocked me and changed my perception of this whole thing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #25  
Old 11-08-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 9,450
Thanks: 10
Thanked 155 Times in 141 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

"you may be the only one here has the real qualifications to answer"......chef2sail

Chef,

I don't recall such insulting vitriol coming your way. Talk about drawing conclusions without all the facts. This thread is about why we are so emotional and you're still leading the pack.

You live in a glass house on this one, my friend.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #26  
Old 11-08-2012
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,050
Thanks: 30
Thanked 57 Times in 53 Posts
Rep Power: 8
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

I can be an emotional person sometimes. I prefer that rather than be a block of logical stone. I beleive I am adult enough to know the difference of when it cannot be allowed to influence my decisons.

What got me emotional is hearing people lost their life. I to have been on the Bounty as well as 15 tall ships in the last year. They are incredible.

I still have tears in my eyes as I watch and look at the destruction in Staten Island, Breezy Point, and th NY/NJ shore areas.

Emotion is not weakness.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #27  
Old 11-08-2012
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,050
Thanks: 30
Thanked 57 Times in 53 Posts
Rep Power: 8
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

Quote:
don't recall such insulting vitriol coming your way-Minniewaska.
not met to insult my friend. If it did I apoligize.

Maybe I didnt phrase it quite politically correctly. Let me try and rephrase here. He appears to be the one person so far with obvious stated credentials which are relevant and IMHO that may be able to clarify and offer facts other than the captain left the dock in face of a hurricane.

Quote:
This thread is about why we are so emotional and you're still leading the pack- Minniewaska.
It seems when I have an opinion it is considered an emotional one. Thats is also insulting. I have already explained why I think this incident raised an emotional response as the OP requested and how that may have affected me.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner

Last edited by chef2sail; 11-08-2012 at 10:31 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #28  
Old 11-08-2012
Retired Naval Architect
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: ON S/V Strider
Posts: 141
Thanks: 1
Thanked 8 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Roger Long is on a distinguished road
Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
In my case it is not about the respect for the family but the rush to judgement which could possibly cloud or cause the investigation to miss important pertinant causation which has caused the angst in me.

I feel they may cloud or impede an accurate investigation.
Don't worry. No formal investigation will take the slightest notice of what is said here and on other forums. There is no jury so there is no risk of contaminating a jury pool as sometimes happens in highly publicized criminal cases.

The record of formal investigations producing accurate and useful conclusions about sailing vessel losses is pretty poor. I can't take time to go into it here but you can Google around the Wooden Boat Forum and other places to see what I've said about Pride of Baltimore and Marques investigations. Even the person who conducted one of the best investigations into a sailing vessel loss that I know of agreed with a Facebook post I made saying the I didn't think there was a lot to learn from an investigation into this accident.

One risk of public discussion is that people like myself will be excluded from an investigation as I was from the POB inquiry due to public statements I had made on behalf of other sail training clients. I could have pointed out to them the simple math calculation they forgot to do which completely undermines the findings.

However, I am happy not to get formally involved in this and it would be more about ship operations than characteristics so there are many people more qualified than myself.

You should probably read through this if you have not already. It will give you some insight into some of your other questions which are too numerous to answer right now.

Pride and Stability
LinekinBayCD likes this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #29  
Old 11-08-2012
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,050
Thanks: 30
Thanked 57 Times in 53 Posts
Rep Power: 8
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

Thank you Roger


Its an incredable read. Very enlightening
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner

Last edited by chef2sail; 11-08-2012 at 11:29 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #30  
Old 11-08-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 674
Thanks: 1
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 6
lancelot9898 is on a distinguished road
Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

Roger thanks for providing the website. It gives more insight into the calculations and methods used to determine stability. If I had my say I would want people like you on any accident review board.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rhodes Bounty ll white rabbit Introduce Yourself 3 07-13-2014 06:00 AM
HMS Bounty in trouble... jimjazzdad Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger 1949 03-03-2013 11:50 AM
Mixed emotions kwaltersmi General Discussion (sailing related) 82 03-03-2008 08:41 PM
Sailing: Sanderson left with mixed emotions (Independent) NewsReader News Feeds 0 05-20-2006 09:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:43 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.