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  #41  
Old 11-08-2012
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Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

The more I see and read the more I want to never go to sea on any of these tarining sailing vessels or tourist attractions.
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  #42  
Old 11-08-2012
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Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Long View Post
Only as far as not presenting a hazard to visitors while tied to a dock if it was anything beyond the same safety inspection they might give your boat. She was certificated as an "Attraction Vessel" which is moved from port to port by a professional crew. It's about the lowest rung of USCG oversight.

The fact that she was providing sail training and could not continue in business without people willing to work for token wages may have some unfortunate consequences for the sail training and historic vessel community. The USCG investigation of the "Pride" was largely motivated by avoiding opening up that can of worms but they may not be able to duck it this time.
A guy posted this on another thread that was discussing the accident:

USCG CGMIX PSIX Vessel Details Page

I asked for information about that saying:

"Do you care to en-light us?:

I understand the boat is classified as a dock side attraction and was inspected as one.

The BOUNTY was not inspected as a Sail Training Vessel under 46CFR subchapter R but has a subchapter C uninspected 12 passenger vessel.


I got no answer. Can you tell us about what those inspections refer?

Regards

Paulo
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Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolatom View Post
What makes you think the Coast Guard Marine Board is going to be "Mickey-Mouse"? And that private lawsuits are going to do such a better job?

Have you participated in a formal Board? You're aware the parties in interest have the right to employ legal counsel, who are relatively free to probe anything relevant? Likely the same lawyers to be involved in the subsequent I-want-money litigation.

The Board has the duty to try to find out what happened factually, and to recommend any regulatory changes they find advisable. Also to put the fear of God into all the other licensed Masters, regardless of the apparent death of the licensed captain here. Also, in private litigation, the attorneys/parties decide what evidence they want to put forward or keep on the down-low (if they can). Those proceedings can be more about winning a narrow legal issue and deemphasizing unfavorable evidence, than about getting the full factual picture and determining what's good (or bad) for the industry and the public looking ahead. Also the Board members tend to have decent general maritime experience and knowledge. Not necessarily so, depending on which federal or state judge you draw, or what jury pool you're asking to figure out a marine casualty

But hey, free country (full disclosure--I'm retired Coast Guard Reserve and have sat on, and practiced before, these boards). You can call then just an "administrative procedure" if you want, but they do have credibility with the public historically, at least in my view. Your mileage may vary, but this is mine.
I appreciate your incite and knowledge but don't you think that the coast guard recommendations are not limited by political and economic interests?

I have read a CG investigation and recommendations about a case of several masts broken on charter cats. I would say the conclusions would point out for a mandatory inspection on masts for charter boats, or even to all sailboats from time to time. but the recommendations, if I remember well, were only recommendations for what owners should do (if they wanted)... not mandatory.

Ir seemed to me that, according with the findings, if they could they would recommend regular inspections and for what you have said before, I assumed it would not be only to the masts in what regards boats on the category of unispected vessels with 6 and 12 passengers.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

I've never been politically correct, no point in starting now...

Sad as it may be it was a boat that got stuck in a hurricane & it sank.

No one including the captain is to blame for this. The captain took a gamble trying to skirt the storm & lost. You don't need an inquiry or a college degree to figure out what went wrong. What did the Navy do with the ships in Norfolk? They put out to sea.

Fortunately only 2 crew members were lost but the fact is many more people on land were killed in this storm.

Everytime you head out on a boat wether it's the lake, river, ocean or the bay you're playing the odds & anyone that thinks otherwise is in denial.
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Old 11-08-2012
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Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
Ball Valves. OK to use ball valves as long as the threads are compatible ie NPT to NPT or NPS to NPS.
Sorry, I always think of anything that stops in-line flow as a gate valve but you are correct, it is correctly called a ball valve. They are not the same as a seacock which has a large bearing surface and is much less likely to break off. Using just a ball valve into which a thru-hull is screwed is asking for trouble. Some cheaper boats did this instead of spending the money on a true seacock. That probably is not the case but you can't see what's under the floor board. There's probably an actual thru-hull base/nipple underneath but the fact that the ball valve sits right atop the deck is suspicious. At the very least, the clamp looks quite rusty. Since they took on water before going down, things like that will probably come into question.
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Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I appreciate your incite and knowledge but don't you think that the coast guard recommendations are not limited by political and economic interests?

I have read a CG investigation and recommendations about a case of several masts broken on charter cats. I would say the conclusions would point out for a mandatory inspection on masts for charter boats, or even to all sailboats from time to time. but the recommendations, if I remember well, were only recommendations for what owners should do (if they wanted)... not mandatory.

Ir seemed to me that, according with the findings, if they could they would recommend regular inspections and for what you have said before, I assumed it would not be only to the masts in what regards boats on the category of unispected vessels with 6 and 12 passengers.

Regards

Paulo
Well, generally the Board makes it's recommendations up the Coast Guard chain of command, and at the Commandant (headquarters) or higher up at the Dept of Homeland Security level I won't deny there can be political or interest-group (industry) pressure. And typically, if they put forth new regulations, there's a comment period where anyone can chime in. Frequently the proposed regulations are amended, changed, or withdrawn as a result. It's just the process at work.

And typically they will try to use the least-draconian method to accomplish a safety change, meaning recommendations rather than regulations if appropriate. In the case of recreational vessels or uninspected passenger charter boats, it might well take the form of a recommendation to owners or manufacturers (recently they issued recommendations for recreational dive vessels regarding diver safety). Not mandatory, but beware if you don't do it and someone is injured or other bad things happen, then the recommendation will be used to show someone didn't act 'reasonably' regarding safety. Accomplishes the same thing, without having to get into a new wave of regulation, especially if the pool of affected vessels is small--such as, I guess, charter catamarans?

Generally the Coast Guard is not power-hungry for more jurisdiction and more regulations. More typically they're criticized for not having regulated something (river towboats for example) after some bad casualty (such as the Amtrak river-bridge derailment casualty near Mobile). This gets back to what I heard in my early inspector-training days, "all the marine safety regulations are written in blood..."

It might happen here, depending on what the formal investigation finds and recommends.

Understand this is just my opinion here, based on experience in the Coast Guard, and in the years since. I'm not an advertisement for them, though it may sound that way sometimes ;-)
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Last edited by nolatom; 11-08-2012 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 11-08-2012
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Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

Quote:
Originally Posted by misfits View Post
I've never been politically correct, no point in starting now...

Sad as it may be it was a boat that got stuck in a hurricane & it sank.

No one including the captain is to blame for this. The captain took a gamble trying to skirt the storm & lost. You don't need an inquiry or a college degree to figure out what went wrong. What did the Navy do with the ships in Norfolk? They put out to sea.

Fortunately only 2 crew members were lost but the fact is many more people on land were killed in this storm.

Everytime you head out on a boat wether it's the lake, river, ocean or the bay you're playing the odds & anyone that thinks otherwise is in denial.
Another point being that the Bounty was a commercial vessel, with a schedule to keep. Perhaps an old, wooden commercial vessel, but with the same kind of imperatives as the Maersk Edinburgh. Her owners and captain decided that the Bounty could deal with the weather and the schedule. Sadly they were wrong. The captain and one crew paid the ultimate price. Unlike the navy crews, the Bounty's crew could have chosen to stay ashore. The small pay they make was likely not a factor - they believed in the vessel and her captain. We can only hope that some lessons will be learned and some changes will be made as a result of this tragedy and the CG investigation of it.

This, to me, is the emotional magnetism of the Bounty tragedy - its not a yachting story; its the old story of ships and the sea and the men and women on them. Bounty, even in her demise, was truly a romantic anachronism; her story is far more appealing to the public than the sinking of a fishing boat or a container ship. But, for the crew, its the same old story.

Last edited by jimjazzdad; 11-08-2012 at 12:49 PM.
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  #48  
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Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

Quote:
Originally Posted by misfits View Post
I've never been politically correct, no point in starting now...

Sad as it may be it was a boat that got stuck in a hurricane & it sank.

No one including the captain is to blame for this. The captain took a gamble trying to skirt the storm & lost. ....
I don't know if I understand you correctly. You are saying that a Captain gamble with the lives of his crew and is not responsible if he loses the gamble?

A Captain should never gamble and would only take a risk, even a calculated one if that risk is the lesser one. Obviously it is not the case. He could have stayed in Port and nobody would have died even if the Ship sustained any damage.

Well, it seems that you are not the only one that think like that since some liked your view of things. Frankly I find that scary. Will all of you act the same way regarding your own boats and the lives of your crews or families: I mean Gambling?

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-08-2012 at 01:07 PM.
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Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
not met to insult my friend. If it did I apoligize.
accepted

Quote:
Maybe I didnt phrase it quite politically correctly. Let me try and rephrase here. He appears to be the one person so far with obvious stated credentials which are relevant and IMHO that may be able to clarify and offer facts other than the captain left the dock in face of a hurricane.
That makes more sense, without suggesting the rest of us are unqualified. Some are more qualified.

Quote:
It seems when I have an opinion it is considered an emotional one. Thats is also insulting. I have already explained why I think this incident raised an emotional response as the OP requested and how that may have affected me.
I will also apologize if I insulted you. When you type 1000 to 2000 words in a single post, I read it as emotional and aggressive, not just an opinion.

We good now buddy? Let's have a rita.
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Last edited by Minnewaska; 11-08-2012 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 11-08-2012
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Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

From what I've read in this thread, it seems there are two schools of thought at the core of why this has become such an emotional discussion:

1. Those who believe that the ship should never have sailed into a hurricane and by simply avoiding the hurricane would have resulted in zero loss of life and the captain is always responsible for his or her ship.
2. Those who believe the official investigation is the only place where it can be determined who or what is at fault for the death of two sailors and the loss of the ship.

These two beliefs have become the irresistible force vs. the immoveable object.

I think it's also safe to say the discussion isn't over.
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