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An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

21K views 140 replies 39 participants last post by  PCP 
#1 · (Edited)
#4 ·
For those not on Facebook:
BAD JUDGEMENT, FAULTY REASONING, THE WILLFULLY RECKLESS APPROACH OF SAILING VESSEL HMS BOUNTY WITH HURRICANE SANDY
by Jan Cameron Miles on Saturday, 1 December 2012 at 16:04 ·

December 1, 2012

AN OPEN LETTER

Dear Robin,

It has been a month now since the USCG stopped looking for you. Claudene is dead and BOUNTY, like you, is lost at sea as a result of your decision to sail directly towards Hurricane Sandy. Your action reminds me of the movie "Hunt for Red October". I am thinking of that captain of the submarine hunting the other submarine. The captain on the hunt for the fleeing sub threw all caution away in his hunting effort. Why did you throw all caution away by navigating for a close pass of Hurricane Sandy? I was so surprised to discover that BOUNTY was at sea near Cape Hatteras and close to Hurricane Sandy Sunday night October 28th! That decision of yours was reckless in the extreme!

The outcome of your action makes you the only captain of the current crop of long experienced American maritime licensed sailing vessel masters' actually willing to voyage anywhere near a hurricane! Did you not remember the fate of the FANTOME? Like BOUNTY she was a slow, less than 10 knot capable vessel under engine power. Not fast enough to run out of range of the reach of Hurricane Mitch. Additionally the master of FANTOME had too much confidence in hurricane forecasting accuracy. Mitch made an unexpected left turn after consistent movement westward before slowing down to near stopped about the time FANTOME made her run eastward from Belize trying to escape Mitch. A stationary hurricane is nearly impossible to predict future motion. To the best of anyone's knowledge (FANTOME was lost with all hands) Mitch ran right over her. You, on the other hand, maneuvered directly toward a very accurately forecast and steadily moving Hurricane Sandy with a slow moving vessel of wood construction, FANTOME was of metal. Also, BOUNTY is quite a bit smaller than FANTOME. Still you aimed all but directly at Sandy. That was reckless my friend! Was it wise or prudent to set off into the teeth of Sandy in BOUNTY? Did it make any sense at all? Virtually all of your professional friends and colleagues back here do not think so, not at all.

You told everyone you were going east around Sandy. But you did not even try to do so. Your track line indicates unequivocally a trail all but directly toward Sandy. When I heard east around was the strategy I immediately wondered about it. I am not the only one to know that BOUNTY is not highly powered with her engines. You yourself are publicly recorded as saying BOUNTY is under powered. Looking at weather conditions east of Long Island for Friday October 26 it is clear there were northeast winds. They were not strong winds...near 5-10 knots at the buoy 50 miles SE of Nantucket with a slight sea of between 1-2 feet. But windage of any sailing vessel under auxiliary power is significant. A full-rigged ship has a whole lot more windage. 5 knots of boat speed into 10 knots of wind means a lot of drag slowing BOUNTY down...maybe with the underpowered engines BOUNTY could barely reach 5 knots of boat speed? Saturday Oct. 27 at the buoy wind had increased to around 15 knots NExE and sea had increased to around 3-4 feet. With staysails set and motor-sailing what would BOUNTY have been steering? Maybe something south of true East? What kind of speed would BOUNTY have made? On Sunday Oct. 28 wind had jumped to 30-35 knots NExE and the sea was up around 12 feet and building. Considering those big bluff bows of BOUNTY and massive windage in her rigging you probably decided to abandon the "go east around Sandy" strategy long before even trying it out because of the increasingly slow progress BOUNTY would eventually be making with ever increasing winds and swell from the northeast plus the knowledge the wind would eventually veer to east and on toward southeast as Sandy moved north forcing BOUNTY to turn southward and even southwestward and that would be back toward Sandy. You may also have still been doubtful of Sandy actually turning NW. Considering Sandy did go toward land rather than toward sea, had you tried to go eastward as you originally intended with any kind of will, BOUNTY might have wound up pretty far away from Sandy's center, but the storm was so big you might actually have met conditions somewhat similar to what you actually met by heading straight toward Sandy. Having to abandon BOUNTY well out to the eastward would likely have been at a location somewhat further away from rescue assets than you actually were. So, ironically, it may actually have been fortunate for your crew that you did not try to go eastward.

An even more distressing puzzle is brought forth by BOUNTY's steady movement directly at Sandy after you had abandoned your original notion of going east around. Friday Oct. 26 forecasting confirmed an even higher confidence Hurricane Sandy would turn left after some more time going north. But BOUNTY continued straight southward! Why did you not turn for New York Harbor? The light northeast flow I describe above was occurring all the way down past the mouth of the Delaware Bay. You could have gone way up the Hudson River. With the NE'rly wind behind BOUNTY is it likely speed might have been more than 5 knots on her way to New York? Alternatively, by my calculation, at 5 knots BOUNTY could have diverted toward Delaware Bay and gone up that bay and through the C & D Canal by late Saturday night. Wind in the Upper Chesapeake Bay Saturday night was light and variable with a forecast to increase from the NE overnight into Sunday before backing toward the north and continuing to increase overnight Sunday into Monday. At midnight Saturday northeast wind strength in Baltimore Harbor was actually 10 knots. Late Sunday wind had backed to north and increased to near 20 knots. If BOUNTY were in the Inner Harbor of Baltimore by early Sunday she would have been sheltered from wind by all of those tall city buildings that ring the north side of the Inner Harbor. There would have been no sea action. Harbor water levels did indeed increase above normal, but only by 3-4 feet. BOUNTY would not have floated over any dock. Even if she had, the damage would unlikely be the loss of the ship and certainly not the loss of any life!

So what was it you were thinking by not diverting toward shelter once you knew about the confirmed forecasting that not only continued to indicate Sandy going ashore in New Jersey but also Sandy would likely be the largest hurricane in some time? No slow boat was going to be speedy enough to get out of Sandy's long reach from where BOUNTY was on Friday. Certainly resurrecting the "east around" strategy would be impossible now that the distance to Sandy had reduced bringing with the reduced distance soon to increase NE'rly winds, soon to start a steady veer through East. But a slow boat would have had time to get inshore from where BOUNTY was on Friday before Sandy's strength was felt. Why did you persist in steering BOUNTY directly toward Sandy? Was it confidence in her physical strength after all of the rebuilding over the last several years? If that was the case, that is recklessly cavalier to the extreme! Not even the big powerful tug and barge combinations that regularly ply the East Coast were fooling around with facing Sandy! But you were. I find myself wondering again…What were you thinking?

On top of this, you told folks during the south bound journey directly toward Sandy that it was safer to be at sea. Hmmm...an interesting & vague notion that. It is true the US Navy in Norfolk goes to sea ahead of an approaching hurricane. But they are high endurance (high speed) ships with mariners trained and contracted to go in the way of danger, not young keen professionals & volunteers on an harbor attractions' vessel!

I understand there might be two reasons for sending a navy fleet out. One is their wind resistance at the dock…and probably also concern for extra high water from storm surge. That wind resistance could play great havoc keeping the ships tied to the dock. Maybe wreck the pier by the pressure against the dock. Extra high water causes all kinds of concerns. The other reason is our nation's security. A navy bottled up in port for a hurricane is not a navy able to provide for national defense. Meanwhile those navy ships have a lot of speed they are capable of. And they do not hang around at sea in the path of a hurricane. They keep going out to sea to get away from the rough seas that will be created by the approaching hurricane. Making 20 knots means they could be 480 nautical miles to the eastward in 24 hours. Something not possible with a smaller slow boat that departed closely ahead of Sandy with the idea of protecting itself from dock damage on the premise it would be safer instead to experience big seas as well big winds creating them. Now that is just plain illogical thinking! With a choice between suffering strong wind by being inshore while avoiding big seas verses being at sea with both big seas and strong winds you should have diverted Friday as soon as you got the updated weather forecasting confirming Sandy was going ashore in New Jersey.

Yeah, you were a reckless man Robin. I would not have continued to proceed as you did. Frankly, I do not know anyone with a lot of experience in large, slow (still faster than BOUNTY), strong, steel motor vessels like the powerful tug & barge combinations we see plying the East Coast would have considered heading toward a hurricane like you did with Sandy…not only forecast as going ashore rather than turning towards sea…but also described as a "storm of the century". Those tug & barge operators would seek shelter inshore or not proceed to sea at all. I also do not know any sailing vessel masters that would head toward a hurricane as you did with hopes of negotiating a pass like two vessels meeting head-on. The tug & barge industry has a lot of reason to stay on schedule. Lots of money at stake with timely delivery. But it is even more money if there is significant damage from big seas. Plus, if the cargo is chemical or oil there is the cost and criminal consequences of a polluting spill. I cannot imagine there was any reason existing that would force BOUNTY to directly approach a hurricane. Loss of BOUNTY is so permanent. No more voyages after losing the ship…don't you know!

But the loss of life is the most tragic. You not only lost your own, you lost that of Claudene's. Hell man, the BOUNTY can be replaced. But why ever risk loss when it is so much more important not to risk a crew member's life? Having BOUNTY remain in port, or seek port when it became evident Sandy was not going to turn eastward as most often hurricanes do, might have meant damage to BOUNTY, but unlikely any loss of life. If you found no dock willing to accommodate BOUNTY up the Delaware or in the Chesapeake Bay, put her in the mud and hang on. Doing that would mean no reason to fear sinking completely below water. Even if she were to roll on her side while aground she would not have sunk below the surface. Maybe she would have become a total loss, but the crew could remain sheltered in her hull, assuming there was no safe way to get off of her and ashore before high winds arrived. Putting BOUNTY aground for the winds of Sandy because of no dock option would have been a bold decision! Actually, I believe your request to get to a dock would not have been turned down. However, all of the above was avoidable by not going to sea at all. Your focus should have been the same focus of all of your East Coast sailing vessel contemporaries…not go to sea…rather get tied up in as safe a place as you could find…not waste time trying to gain some distance toward your intended destination.

Robin, for all of the experience you have, it was recklessly poor judgment to have done anything but find a heavy weather berth for your ship, rather than instead intentionally navigate directly toward Sandy with no thought given to deviate if the original plan of yours was not panning out. During the nineteen years you were master of BOUNTY you were the single reason she remained active. Under your command she went from being an aging wooden vessel with all of the typical problems age brings to a vessel, to a reviving vessel as a result of several significant re-buildings over the last several years. You were a hero in everyone's eyes. Deservedly so I will freely add!!! I so respected your even, steady persistence to celebrate what BOUNTY could be and as a result was becoming. After years of barely surviving coastal trips here in America, after significant rebuilding, you successfully managed two safe and productive European voyages. That success was surely destined for more voyages to ports thrilling throngs of public in love with BOUNTY's roll in Hollywood movies. But that future is gone now. Because you chose to do something that no one of your experience, and all those young professionals with less experience, several that sailed with you, would have done. Some might have sailed and diverted. Some might have sailed with the plan to get some distance south along the coast then duck inshore long before any real impact from Sandy would be felt. But most did not depart at all. They worked from the start locating as safe a harbor arrangement as could be figured out. Up there in Southern New England is the fine port of New Bedford with its storm dyke to protect the fishing fleet. Surely BOUNTY would have been welcomed? I cannot conjure any reason why your friends in New London would not have responded with welcome of shelter had you asked.

While there are many memories I have of conversing with you about things marine affecting what we do as masters of sailing vessels, we never discussed the topic of delivering on schedule as promised and the problems of failure to arrive as promised. This is coming oh so very much too late, but I feel compelled to share that during my many years as master of vessels, there has never been any pressure put on me to make sure promises of arrival were kept. What I was told is that safety was most important. Safety of the ship was desired. But safety of the crew was most essential. As a result I have been master aboard when I have had to inform the company the intended arrival would not occur as scheduled due to weather. Sometimes the weather concern involved a hurricane. Sometimes the concern was a cold front and resultant head winds or a typical mid latitude low passing by. The decision we were going to be tardy to the destination port had to do with risk of damage to the ship. Preventing ship damage most often meant there would be little to no additional risk of injury to the crew and in the case of an inspected vessel also the passengers. Yep, unlike BOUNTY, most of the sail training vessels in America are certified and inspected for underway activities; several in the American fleet are certified for ocean service. Those that are wood built are pretty strong. Yet they avoid hurricanes. Being tardy always meant there would be another opportunity in the future. With BOUNTY now gone, with you and Claudene as well, there is no future to share with Claudene, with you, with BOUNTY, for all of us…for everyone.

If confidence was the basis in your decisions, no ship is invulnerable. And in a career at sea one cannot avoid every gale or nasty storm - but you set out with the BOUNTY with whatever her strengths and weaknesses into the biggest one some of us have ever seen dominating the Western North Atlantic. Many stronger, faster ships than BOUNTY chose to stay in port for this one. What was your need?

Well my very recklessly cavalier friend. I cannot say I told you so. But I sure can say I am surprised! Not Robin! This stunt is so amateurish as to be off the scale! But stunning surprise of surprises! It is Robin! Heading directly at a hurricane in a small, slow boat. Instead of running and hiding...or not venturing out at all. You have provided everyone with a great deal of hurt and sadness and consternation as well a firestorm of gossip nearly full of blame and foolishness directed at the whole of our sailing community.

That is an inestimably be-damned legacy my friend.

Signed,

Jan C. Miles
 
#5 ·
December 1, 2012

AN OPEN LETTER

Dear Robin,

It has been a month now since the USCG stopped looking for you. Claudene is dead and BOUNTY, like you, is lost at sea as a result of your decision to sail directly towards Hurricane Sandy. Your action reminds me of the movie “Hunt for Red October”. I am thinking of that captain of the submarine hunting the other submarine. The captain on the hunt for the fleeing sub threw all caution away in his hunting effort. Why did you throw all caution away by navigating for a close pass of Hurricane Sandy? I was so surprised to discover that BOUNTY was at sea near Cape Hatteras and close to Hurricane Sandy Sunday night October 28th! That decision of yours was reckless in the extreme!

The outcome of your action makes you the only captain of the current crop of long experienced American maritime licensed sailing vessel masters’ actually willing to voyage anywhere near a hurricane! Did you not remember the fate of the FANTOME? Like BOUNTY she was a slow, less than 10 knot capable vessel under engine power. Not fast enough to run out of range of the reach of Hurricane Mitch. Additionally the master of FANTOME had too much confidence in hurricane forecasting accuracy. Mitch made an unexpected left turn after consistent movement westward before slowing down to near stopped about the time FANTOME made her run eastward from Belize trying to escape Mitch. A stationary hurricane is nearly impossible to predict future motion. To the best of anyone’s knowledge (FANTOME was lost with all hands) Mitch ran right over her. You, on the other hand, maneuvered directly toward a very accurately forecast and steadily moving Hurricane Sandy with a slow moving vessel of wood construction, FANTOME was of metal. Also, BOUNTY is quite a bit smaller than FANTOME. Still you aimed all but directly at Sandy. That was reckless my friend! Was it wise or prudent to set off into the teeth of Sandy in BOUNTY? Did it make any sense at all? Virtually all of your professional friends and colleagues back here do not think so, not at all.

You told everyone you were going east around Sandy. But you did not even try to do so. Your track line indicates unequivocally a trail all but directly toward Sandy. When I heard east around was the strategy I immediately wondered about it. I am not the only one to know that BOUNTY is not highly powered with her engines. You yourself are publicly recorded as saying BOUNTY is under powered. Looking at weather conditions east of Long Island for Friday October 26 it is clear there were northeast winds. They were not strong winds...near 5-10 knots at the buoy 50 miles SE of Nantucket with a slight sea of between 1-2 feet. But windage of any sailing vessel under auxiliary power is significant. A full-rigged ship has a whole lot more windage. 5 knots of boat speed into 10 knots of wind means a lot of drag slowing BOUNTY down...maybe with the underpowered engines BOUNTY could barely reach 5 knots of boat speed? Saturday Oct. 27 at the buoy wind had increased to around 15 knots NExE and sea had increased to around 3-4 feet. With staysails set and motor-sailing what would BOUNTY have been steering? Maybe something south of true East? What kind of speed would BOUNTY have made? On Sunday Oct. 28 wind had jumped to 30-35 knots NExE and the sea was up around 12 feet and building. Considering those big bluff bows of BOUNTY and massive windage in her rigging you probably decided to abandon the "go east around Sandy" strategy long before even trying it out because of the increasingly slow progress BOUNTY would eventually be making with ever increasing winds and swell from the northeast plus the knowledge the wind would eventually veer to east and on toward southeast as Sandy moved north forcing BOUNTY to turn southward and even southwestward and that would be back toward Sandy. You may also have still been doubtful of Sandy actually turning NW. Considering Sandy did go toward land rather than toward sea, had you tried to go eastward as you originally intended with any kind of will, BOUNTY might have wound up pretty far away from Sandy’s center, but the storm was so big you might actually have met conditions somewhat similar to what you actually met by heading straight toward Sandy. Having to abandon BOUNTY well out to the eastward would likely have been at a location somewhat further away from rescue assets than you actually were. So, ironically, it may actually have been fortunate for your crew that you did not try to go eastward.

An even more distressing puzzle is brought forth by BOUNTY’s steady movement directly at Sandy after you had abandoned your original notion of going east around. Friday Oct. 26 forecasting confirmed an even higher confidence Hurricane Sandy would turn left after some more time going north. But BOUNTY continued straight southward! Why did you not turn for New York Harbor? The light northeast flow I describe above was occurring all the way down past the mouth of the Delaware Bay. You could have gone way up the Hudson River. With the NE’rly wind behind BOUNTY is it likely speed might have been more than 5 knots on her way to New York? Alternatively, by my calculation, at 5 knots BOUNTY could have diverted toward Delaware Bay and gone up that bay and through the C & D Canal by late Saturday night. Wind in the Upper Chesapeake Bay Saturday night was light and variable with a forecast to increase from the NE overnight into Sunday before backing toward the north and continuing to increase overnight Sunday into Monday. At midnight Saturday northeast wind strength in Baltimore Harbor was actually 10 knots. Late Sunday wind had backed to north and increased to near 20 knots. If BOUNTY were in the Inner Harbor of Baltimore by early Sunday she would have been sheltered from wind by all of those tall city buildings that ring the north side of the Inner Harbor. There would have been no sea action. Harbor water levels did indeed increase above normal, but only by 3-4 feet. BOUNTY would not have floated over any dock. Even if she had, the damage would unlikely be the loss of the ship and certainly not the loss of any life!

So what was it you were thinking by not diverting toward shelter once you knew about the confirmed forecasting that not only continued to indicate Sandy going ashore in New Jersey but also Sandy would likely be the largest hurricane in some time? No slow boat was going to be speedy enough to get out of Sandy’s long reach from where BOUNTY was on Friday. Certainly resurrecting the "east around" strategy would be impossible now that the distance to Sandy had reduced bringing with the reduced distance soon to increase NE’rly winds, soon to start a steady veer through East. But a slow boat would have had time to get inshore from where BOUNTY was on Friday before Sandy’s strength was felt. Why did you persist in steering BOUNTY directly toward Sandy? Was it confidence in her physical strength after all of the rebuilding over the last several years? If that was the case, that is recklessly cavalier to the extreme! Not even the big powerful tug and barge combinations that regularly ply the East Coast were fooling around with facing Sandy! But you were. I find myself wondering again…What were you thinking?

On top of this, you told folks during the south bound journey directly toward Sandy that it was safer to be at sea. Hmmm...an interesting & vague notion that. It is true the US Navy in Norfolk goes to sea ahead of an approaching hurricane. But they are high endurance (high speed) ships with mariners trained and contracted to go in the way of danger, not young keen professionals & volunteers on an harbor attractions’ vessel!

I understand there might be two reasons for sending a navy fleet out. One is their wind resistance at the dock…and probably also concern for extra high water from storm surge. That wind resistance could play great havoc keeping the ships tied to the dock. Maybe wreck the pier by the pressure against the dock. Extra high water causes all kinds of concerns. The other reason is our nation’s security. A navy bottled up in port for a hurricane is not a navy able to provide for national defense. Meanwhile those navy ships have a lot of speed they are capable of. And they do not hang around at sea in the path of a hurricane. They keep going out to sea to get away from the rough seas that will be created by the approaching hurricane. Making 20 knots means they could be 480 nautical miles to the eastward in 24 hours. Something not possible with a smaller slow boat that departed closely ahead of Sandy with the idea of protecting itself from dock damage on the premise it would be safer instead to experience big seas as well big winds creating them. Now that is just plain illogical thinking! With a choice between suffering strong wind by being inshore while avoiding big seas verses being at sea with both big seas and strong winds you should have diverted Friday as soon as you got the updated weather forecasting confirming Sandy was going ashore in New Jersey.

Yeah, you were a reckless man Robin. I would not have continued to proceed as you did. Frankly, I do not know anyone with a lot of experience in large, slow (still faster than BOUNTY), strong, steel motor vessels like the powerful tug & barge combinations we see plying the East Coast would have considered heading toward a hurricane like you did with Sandy…not only forecast as going ashore rather than turning towards sea…but also described as a “storm of the century”. Those tug & barge operators would seek shelter inshore or not proceed to sea at all. I also do not know any sailing vessel masters that would head toward a hurricane as you did with hopes of negotiating a pass like two vessels meeting head-on. The tug & barge industry has a lot of reason to stay on schedule. Lots of money at stake with timely delivery. But it is even more money if there is significant damage from big seas. Plus, if the cargo is chemical or oil there is the cost and criminal consequences of a polluting spill. I cannot imagine there was any reason existing that would force BOUNTY to directly approach a hurricane. Loss of BOUNTY is so permanent. No more voyages after losing the ship…don’t you know!

But the loss of life is the most tragic. You not only lost your own, you lost that of Claudene’s. Hell man, the BOUNTY can be replaced. But why ever risk loss when it is so much more important not to risk a crew member’s life? Having BOUNTY remain in port, or seek port when it became evident Sandy was not going to turn eastward as most often hurricanes do, might have meant damage to BOUNTY, but unlikely any loss of life. If you found no dock willing to accommodate BOUNTY up the Delaware or in the Chesapeake Bay, put her in the mud and hang on. Doing that would mean no reason to fear sinking completely below water. Even if she were to roll on her side while aground she would not have sunk below the surface. Maybe she would have become a total loss, but the crew could remain sheltered in her hull, assuming there was no safe way to get off of her and ashore before high winds arrived. Putting BOUNTY aground for the winds of Sandy because of no dock option would have been a bold decision! Actually, I believe your request to get to a dock would not have been turned down. However, all of the above was avoidable by not going to sea at all. Your focus should have been the same focus of all of your East Coast sailing vessel contemporaries…not go to sea…rather get tied up in as safe a place as you could find…not waste time trying to gain some distance toward your intended destination.

Robin, for all of the experience you have, it was recklessly poor judgment to have done anything but find a heavy weather berth for your ship, rather than instead intentionally navigate directly toward Sandy with no thought given to deviate if the original plan of yours was not panning out. During the nineteen years you were master of BOUNTY you were the single reason she remained active. Under your command she went from being an aging wooden vessel with all of the typical problems age brings to a vessel, to a reviving vessel as a result of several significant re-buildings over the last several years. You were a hero in everyone's eyes. Deservedly so I will freely add!!! I so respected your even, steady persistence to celebrate what BOUNTY could be and as a result was becoming. After years of barely surviving coastal trips here in America, after significant rebuilding, you successfully managed two safe and productive European voyages. That success was surely destined for more voyages to ports thrilling throngs of public in love with BOUNTY's roll in Hollywood movies. But that future is gone now. Because you chose to do something that no one of your experience, and all those young professionals with less experience, several that sailed with you, would have done. Some might have sailed and diverted. Some might have sailed with the plan to get some distance south along the coast then duck inshore long before any real impact from Sandy would be felt. But most did not depart at all. They worked from the start locating as safe a harbor arrangement as could be figured out. Up there in Southern New England is the fine port of New Bedford with its storm dyke to protect the fishing fleet. Surely BOUNTY would have been welcomed? I cannot conjure any reason why your friends in New London would not have responded with welcome of shelter had you asked.

While there are many memories I have of conversing with you about things marine affecting what we do as masters of sailing vessels, we never discussed the topic of delivering on schedule as promised and the problems of failure to arrive as promised. This is coming oh so very much too late, but I feel compelled to share that during my many years as master of vessels, there has never been any pressure put on me to make sure promises of arrival were kept. What I was told is that safety was most important. Safety of the ship was desired. But safety of the crew was most essential. As a result I have been master aboard when I have had to inform the company the intended arrival would not occur as scheduled due to weather. Sometimes the weather concern involved a hurricane. Sometimes the concern was a cold front and resultant head winds or a typical mid latitude low passing by. The decision we were going to be tardy to the destination port had to do with risk of damage to the ship. Preventing ship damage most often meant there would be little to no additional risk of injury to the crew and in the case of an inspected vessel also the passengers. Yep, unlike BOUNTY, most of the sail training vessels in America are certified and inspected for underway activities; several in the American fleet are certified for ocean service. Those that are wood built are pretty strong. Yet they avoid hurricanes. Being tardy always meant there would be another opportunity in the future. With BOUNTY now gone, with you and Claudene as well, there is no future to share with Claudene, with you, with BOUNTY, for all of us…for everyone.

If confidence was the basis in your decisions, no ship is invulnerable. And in a career at sea one cannot avoid every gale or nasty storm – but you set out with the BOUNTY with whatever her strengths and weaknesses into the biggest one some of us have ever seen dominating the Western North Atlantic. Many stronger, faster ships than BOUNTY chose to stay in port for this one. What was your need?

Well my very recklessly cavalier friend. I cannot say I told you so. But I sure can say I am surprised! Not Robin! This stunt is so amateurish as to be off the scale! But stunning surprise of surprises! It is Robin! Heading directly at a hurricane in a small, slow boat. Instead of running and hiding...or not venturing out at all. You have provided everyone with a great deal of hurt and sadness and consternation as well a firestorm of gossip nearly full of blame and foolishness directed at the whole of our sailing community.

That is an inestimably be-damned legacy my friend.

Signed,

Jan C. Miles

**I took the liberty of copy & paste for those of you who do not have a facebook account. I hope no one minds.
 
#6 ·
An open letter addressed to, and attacking, a dead man. Classy. On Facebook, no less, a long estabished bastion of maritime knowledge.
I'm no naval architect or credentialed bluewater sailor, or anybody with intials following my name on my business card, but i can recognize a cheap attention-whoring *****- move when i see it.

Since the letter was dated yesterday, Roger, I am not sure how lost it would have, or could have, been in the "morass" of the thread to which it pertains.

The wrong boat was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
That's the lesson. It really is simply that simple. Any more pontificating by those of us who weren't there, no matter what our credentials, is simply dancing on graves. The skipper bears the burden of his decisions and paid the ultimate price.
A psychic likely has more credibility than a retired naval architect at this point, since the psychic can at least hazard a guess as to what the skipper was thinking when he made the diecisions he did. an NA can hazard a guess as to why the boat reacted as it did.
 
#9 ·
Since the letter was dated yesterday, Roger, I am not sure how lost it would have, or could have, been in the "morass" of the thread to which it pertains.
Not to mention, there appears to be precious little contained in that 'informed opinion' that hasn't already been posted at some point or another, or in some similar form, during the course of the BOUNTY thread...

I've long been known as a sailing forum Gasbag, but that guy puts me to shame, the number of words he needs to describe Walbridge's actions as "unfathomable"... (grin)
 
#7 · (Edited)
The only good that may come out of beat'n the sh!t out of this is prevention. It's possible a future Captain may not make a simular descison in the future due to massive uproar from the sailing community. Maybe had the Fantome incident been in this age of info and open forum discussion, The Bounty would'nt of sailed.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Wow we have finally found the long lost missing naval writer for the National Enquirer. He surfaced just in time to give us his prose filled insightful opinion of I tragicly poor decision.

Hopefully he devotes as much energy to keeping his boat safe and analyzes his decisions as thoroughly after the fact.

Bravo for becoming the second blowhard of the thread Bounty threads

Dave
 
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#20 · (Edited)
Wow we have finally found the long lost missing naval writer for the National Enquirer. He surfaced just in time to give us his prose filled insightful opinion of I tragicly poor decision.

Hopefully he devotes as much energy to keeping his boat safe and analyzes his decisions as thoroughly after the fact.

Bravo for becoming the second blowhard of the thread Bounty threads

Dave
Dave,

You are doing EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY what you have vociferously opined against for weeks... Your post above is "arm chair quarterbacking" by a "computer screen" expert at its best and WREAKS of blatant hypocrisy...;) Seems you DO have an opinion just like everyone else and you are going to state it, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE....

Was it not you who said this?
chef2sail said:
There will be plenty of time to understand and process the facts and I am sure it will be done by real experts on the field and real lawyers rather than the computer screen lawyers here. Then and only then will we really have the truth about this. Until then tell me....what pleasure do you derive from speculating on this.

Dave
What pleasure do you derive from being one of the main drivers of the continuation of the HMS Bounty topic on SN? What pleasure do you derive brushing off anyone with an "opinion" differing from yours as an "armchair lawyer" or "arm chair quarter back"...?

What pleasure do you derive from referring to a well respected tall ship captain as a "national Enquirer" writer & calling the captain of the Pride of Baltimore a "blowhard"......?? Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .

Have you forgotten that Jan is not a "writer" at all and is merely stating his FEELINGS after WAITING for nearly a month after the death of what he considers a friend? He waited to post this and still apparently has a LOT of anger over this. I don't consider his writings all that good but he did not "rush to judgement" and he did wait to write his "open letter" almost a month...That to me says something, not sure what, but I feel his pain.

Jan can certainly be considered a "real expert" on tall ships, a peer to Walbridge and one of the foremost "experts" on that type of vessel and the sailing of them. His OPINION was what he wrote. he apparently feels Walbridge left a bad mark on the rest of the fleet. These are his feelings and OPINION as an "expert", something you actually asked for in the other thread..

Apparently you have decided you don't like his writings so resort to name calling and denigrating his OPINION of a lost friends actions as "National Enquirer" level writings and to him personally as a "blowhard".... That, I FIND UTTERLY OFFENSIVE especially coming from YOU who has spent countless hours per day at your keyboard taking up a stance against ANYONE with an OPINION or "rush to judgement" that is different from yours on this matter.......

You also said this:

chef2sail said:
My biggest problem with the postings are the rush to judgement to afix blame on the captain entirely, and then the glee to assassinate his character. This isnt done by a group of savy well experienced ocean and blue water sailors ( my apologies to the few who have this experience) but is being done by the armchair quarterbacks who start analyzing the situations as soon as the story comes apparent. It leads to this feeding frenzy which can prevent them from looking and absorbing other details as wells as focusing on unimportant snippets of u tube postings as the paramount reasoning. Its like its a story of thodse damn shows following network news at 7 PM. The SN jury has already found the captain guilty as charged and not even waited for any evidence of the companies pressure or involvement, statements from the survivors, or statements from professionals.
and this:

chef2sail said:
Funny many of the interviews I have seen with the Captains professional aquaitences do not paint a picture of a reckless man.
chef2sail said:
Just a side note the Captain of the Pride of Baltimore interview today says hes witholding jusdgement until more facts come forward and the inquirey by the GC is done.
Now we do have a statement from the captain of the Pride of Baltimore who is not only a professional or "acquaintance" but a peer and one of the foremost experts on tall ships and you dismiss his OPINIONS as "National Enquirer" and call him a "blowhard"....? Wow!!!:eek::eek::eek:

Hypocrisy 101...:D

chef2sail said:
Ever notice the TRUE professioals are not predisopsing themselves to conclusions here?
Um now I guess the captain of the Pride of Baltimore will get dismissed as not a "TRUE professional"....?

No offense to you personally I just find a gross level of hypocrisy on your part on this entire matter.. That is my "opinion", but perhaps not a fact....;)

You have also used numerous offensive terms in this and the other thread. Far more than Rogers "toy boat sailor" comment yet you again go at him very hypocritically and call him out on his comment being offensive..

So how is "toy boat sailor" any more or less offensive than your name calling of other SN members? Like........

"armchair lawyer"
"armchair quarterbacks"
"blowhard"
"amateur sleuths"
"Salinet pundits"
"internet jockey"


chef2sail said:
Is civility no longer part of our culture where we feel we ll have the right to judge...and then post out feelings with no regards to the people involved.
You asked that last question, not I..:D
 
#14 ·
I think the flames above are missing the point, perhaps because of not knowing who the author of the letter is. One seems to think I wrote it. I didn't. Do some Google research on Jan C. Miles.

Sure, the same things have been said but not yet by a professional peer and friend of Wallbridge. Jan is actually more than a peer given his level of experience. I've know him since 1983 and he has been involved with sailing vessel losses and safety issues more than all but a couple of sailing ship masters.

I'm not going to pass judgement on the tone or the content. The anger I can certainly understand. The industry Jan had given his life to has been badly damaged, a beautiful ship is gone, and friends of his are dead. He is a lot closer to this than anyone who has posted here or elsewhere.

The facts are fairly clear. A lot of armchair or toy boat sailors could have written much the same letter as a post here and it would not have had the same significance. I think it's worth noting that Jan is saying these things because of who he is.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Roger,

I lot of good blue water sailors and professionals have written things here and in other posts without the overdramatization this man did. It did nothing to help find anything new which had happened, it did nothing to she'd new light, it did nothing to help change things in the future learning from the experience. It was a prose full colorful bloodletting loading of personal feelings which probably made the poster feel better , but showed absolutely non of his professionalism or sorrow which you interpret as anger. His musings might as well have been as one of the arm chair quarterbacks or toy boat sailors.

BTW some of the toy boat sailors ( as you in your snarky way described some of us) and arm chair quarterbacks display far more common sense thn your so called professnionls.walbridge was a professional and this writers professionalism is certainly called into play as much by his statements on Facebook.

Roger, I looked him up on Google big deal. It makes it all the more embarrassing to read what/how he wrote. Since you claim to know him maybe you do you could communicate to him how unprofessional is posting was and unrepresentative of true professionals in the industry. I would not have a lot of confidence in someone who posts and writes like he was doing an article for the National Enquirre as he did.

This in no way exonerates Walbridge of responsibility for his actions.
Dave
 
#16 · (Edited)
BTW some of the toy boat sailors ( as you in your snarky way described some of us) and arm chair quarterbacks display far more common sense thn your so called professnionls.
Not intended to be snarky. I was professionally involved with boats, mostly commercial ones, all my life. However, when it comes to operating them, I am a toy boat sailor myself.

As for professionals showing less common sense than an amateur, that is the absolute heart and pivot point of this whole story. Any details that the investigation will probably focus on such as what bilge suction might have clogged or even what plank might have popped loose are fairly insignificant. These are just the kind of things that sink ships in heavy weather. The real issue is why was the ship there in a storm of this magnitude and (according to forecasters' discussions at the time) unpredictability.

After all that has been said here and elsewhere, I don't think we are any closer to understanding the decisions made by the captain than when it first came to notice that the ship had left port. The harsh things said here about Jan's writing are addressing a different subject. To me, the fact that someone of his experience is left so mystified by what Wallbridge did as to have written such a letter is significant. The fact that Jan can't contribute much to our understanding of how this happened and is so perplexed is the story.

Posters all over the Internet have pointed to Wallbridge's experience and suggested it proves he must have known what he was doing, taken a calculated risk, and had a bit of bad luck. They have it backwards. It is the amount of his experience that makes this story so mystifying. I think we have to look deeper than poor decision making here for the true causes.

People like Dan Moreland of the Picton Castle and Jan are not saying, as they could have about many accident scenarios, "There but for the grace of God, go I." Something out of the ordinary happened here and I'm not referring to the weather. Jan's letter simply drives that home.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Simple explainations are better. I dont want to psycoanalyze this Captain. How can you do that he is dead. He cant tell you why. Besides it doesnt matter

Its enough for me to know he knew the danger....he choose to ignor the omnipresent storm which continued to grow and was forecasted to enlarge....he sailed right at it and when presented with opertunity to correct his mistake by running for port choose not to insyead placed himself beetween it in the Gulf Stream at the graveyard of the Atlantic Cape Hatteras

I disagree fundementally with you...there is nothing to be learned more about that part of the scenario. I also think that there is no way no improve or legislate greater safety into his internal mind decision, he left port and sailed into a hurricane period. Thats the most fundemental fact which has been verified already and we need no investigation for.

I also disagree that other ancilliary issues which actually sunk the ship eg leaking planking, lack of proper redundant systems, poor design, lightening of the overall keel weight etc are found out tha we could in the future make these ships safer, inspectable at any weight, look more carefully at design, require more qualified seaman, change the regualtory requirements etc can still be ascertained from the investigation of the actual vs hersay or speculated facts.

Not intended to be snarky. I was professionally involved with boats, mostly commercial ones, all my life. However, when it comes to operating them, I am a toy boat sailor myself-Rogerlong
.

But you continue to be dismissive of many of us with your language " toy boat sailor" so your statement of not intended snarky continues to be disingenuine. And by the way you titled the thread " An Informed Opinion of Bounty" as opposed to what .....what others are posting.....because why...because you and your friend are professionals and you look down upon the rest of the boating community as just "toy boaters" who in your opinion are less serious than you. Remember its the professionals who gives us the Bounty, Casta Concordia, Titanic, Exon Valdez etc. It has been well established that the liscencing and professional marinaer may on paper be safer or nore well versed or even may have more experience, but none of that means more common sense.

Your friend wrote a prose filled letter to a "dead" man with only one intention. To make his own person FINAL sarcastic morose shot at him without response which acomplished nothing other for him to vent his professional spleen in a public unprofessional manner. You can afix any motives you want to this sir, but that is how some, maybe most ( I am not sure peoples perceptions have been of his diatribe as has been posted already) is. Had he had any balls he would have gone to the gravesite and read it Walbridge himself or stood up before a group of you so called professionals and read it out loud.

In life peoples perceptions can be their realities and it makes no difference how it was intended. Just like I am sur Walbidges perception of what he was doing leaving the dock...didnt equate to the reality of our perceptions. Why he left doesnt matter, he did. Why he left doesnt absolve him of the ultimate responsibility of the fate of the Bounty
 
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#18 ·
He does offer an interesting opinion of the options that Wallbridge didn't take, of running for shelter once he realized that it was an absolute certainty that he was going to run headlong into Sandy. He is asking - why not run up the Hudson? Or later on, up the Delaware? Yes, he is making a point. Its a mystery.
I beleive this was asked before and not just a revelation from this guy. He had many options top abort. He could have come in NY Harbor and up the Hudson, He could have come up the Delaware River, He could have come into the Chesapeake even at the last minute and taken refuge in the Norfolk area. He didnt do any, but just barreled along
 
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#19 ·
One of the handful of people on the planet whose opinion I believe most qualified on a matter like the Bounty loss has spoken out.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/jan-...ss-approach-of-sailing-vessel/174315806048123

....
After reading the letter, I don't think it was written for public consumption so much as it is/was an expression of mourning and catharsis for the author. Facebook is/was just the tablet akin to audible/visible mourning, rending of ones clothing and smearing ones face and clothing with ashes, all "public" displays of profound sorrow/sadness. Cut the author a little slack.
 
#21 ·
I don't think an open letter to a dead person is quite the correct thing to do. I can't really explain it, but it feels a bit dirty.

Maybe it's the way we use language.... Aboriginal people in Australia are not allowed to mention a deceased person and especially not use their name.
I guess we also have guidelines of etiquette... I have criticized the Captain of Bounty in many of my posts, but I would never say: Captain X, Listen to me...

The other thing is the writing doesn't offer up an opinion. It just asks questions of the dead person. An opinion is a statement, not a question. Isn't it?;)

It's place is in the miasma of the original thread.
Sorry... The morass or the original thread. Can you have a miasmatic morass?

:)
 
#22 ·
Again, and again, in reading the letter it appears the author has suffered a personal loss. Can't that just be respected?

Myself and another member both posted a copy at nearly the same time, although mine was second I still feel somewhat responsible. It was posted simply so that members who did not have a facebook account could read it.

I'm starting to feel sorry that I got involved.

Call it what you want, but, it's obviously about pain and expression. It's distressing that some of us cannot identify that and let it be.
 
#31 ·
1) Thank you for posting the item as some of us still don't have Facebook, but are very much interested in the puzzling last voyage of the Bounty. I find the opinions of peers of the Bounty's captain very interesting. As one of those behind the computer screen when it comes to tall ship sailing, I don't understand why that voyage was made into the face of Sandy by an experienced tall ship captain. My take on it was that the writer has lost a friend, and along with sorrow, sometimes comes anger at the event , and even at his friend, that caused the loss, and he was expressing that.

2) Just after the storm, I was in Beaufort, NC. The tallship 74' Brigantine S/V Fritha was docked there. I talked a bit with a crew member who identified himself as the relief captain. He said that he had sailed with the Bounty's captain and that he had several friends that were onboard on the final trip. He spoke highly of the captain, but he too was at a complete loss as to why that voyage wasn't either, never started, or once started, why they didn't see refuge in one of the numerous ports that were available.
 
#23 · (Edited)
R.C,

No disrespect, So now you get down in the dirt with me and do exactly what I do. PMs still exist and you could have made your points there so obviously you felt some need to publicly state your opinion to try and take me own a peg. You do exactly what you accuse me of Makes you no better than me and me no better than anyone else. Guess you understand now if you can beat them, join them. Directing it to me and singling me out is no different than what I have done. Calling me a hypocrite is no different from what you say I do. Maybe your threshold is higher than mine, but obviously you have one so i see and I appear o have crossed it or tweaked it with you. So how do you handle it. Basically like me. You rush in to post a long wordy diatribe directed at one individual. You can't occupy the high ground if you get down in the trench. I have climbed down on my own free will and decided that my previous approach didn't work so I changed. There are a few posters on here who do exactly the same and i no one stops them. So I see your have now partially joined me, or maybe it is only directed to me and you will climb out of the pit. Either way, your directing at one individual on here is just what you are doing yourself, so I guess hypocrisy rules. I hope you are now taking the banner of fighting hypocracy on Sailnet and will apply to all who post and don't just single me out. Go for it I got tired of seeing my friend Mr Walbridge being vilified as the next thing o Jeffery Dahmler so I have been upset and angry in this thread.

I respect your opinion in many things technical where you obviously have expertise far more than mine. We have met and I enjoyed our conversation together and hope we get to do it again over drinks or a meal. You have been a great source of informstion . That's earns huge respect from me. Doing what you did just now does not. I assume you have felt the same as you have watched me recently in this thread.

So lets just say you re the better person here, most of the time anyway. I applaud your control. I don't process it maybe, or I don't want to maybe, and maybe in this thread particularly. Doesn't really matter as there are plenty on here who don't and get away with it all the time. You will notice that my behavior/ tone has really mainly been in this thread and does not really carry over to others. Maybe you should ask me why privately. The answer may surprise you.

Suffice it to say that my relationship to the deceased Captain and his family was more than professional, circumstantial, and more than just his job as the Captain of the sunk Bounty. None of you unless you have had it happen to you, someone in your family can understand what it is really like to do something wrong, have it cost lives, have it speculated about with the deepest and darkest motives in a public display not be alive to deal with the questions or consequences and leave only your family and a few close friends to watch you get villified and answer what happened in your steed as you were dead.

RC I hope if you ever do something to injure someone no one who has pretended to be your friend or associate of years posts a vitriolic article on a social media site to ruin your reputation in perpetuity and the reputation your loved ones will have to deal with forever. I hope no one camps outside your wife's house with signs. I hope no one follows you to the store and shoves mikes in your face. I hope no one writes caustic things for all to read about you. He didn't sign up for that as Captain of the Bounty, nor did his family or friends and te pressure has been relentless for weeks.

It has been very difficult to watch all this knowing him and his loved ones.
Not easy to hold your tongue and anger as others speculated and took pot shots and ruined him. RC maybe I not process the same
control as you or others, but I stopped being able to take it anymore in this thread about post 20. I apologize or my lack of control.

This man was a humble nice man who erred in judgement and it cost someone's life and his own. Had he lived I know he would have had a hard time living with that. He would equally have had a hard time dealing with how his family has been treated. He was a gentle man who loved the sea, loved the mystery of the tall ships, loved his family and friends and loved seeing the people's faces who he turned on when the got on board his ship or he told the tall tales lots of captains do. He never ever would have meant anyone harm. But tht apparently does not count. I understand he was wrong o sail into the storm.

I am sure, Beleve me as he was slowly dying in the waters of the Atantic that day in his survival suit tht he thought about that, thought about the peril he put his crew in, thought about those who he was leaving behind friends and family and never once thought about himself. That's the type man Robin Waldridge really was. Not some egotistical self inflated fool. He paid the ultimate price he died a broken man. How terrible and how tragic.

Dave
 
#24 · (Edited)
R.C,

No disrespect, So now you get down in the dirt with me and do exactly what I do. PMs still exist and you could have made your points there so obviously you felt some need to publicly state your opinion to try and take me own a peg. You do exactly what you accuse me of Makes you no better than me and me no better than anyone else. Guess you understand now if you can beat them, join them. Directing it to me and singling me out is no different than what I have done. Calling me a hypocrite is no different from what you say I do. Maybe your threshold is higher than mine, but obviously you have one so i see and I appear o have crossed it or tweaked it with you. So how do you handle it. Basically like me. You rush in to post a long wordy diatribe directed at one individual. You can't occupy the high ground if you get down in the trench. I have climbed down on my own free will and decided that my previous approach didn't work so I changed. There are a few posters on here who do exactly the same and i no one stops them. So I see your have now partially joined me, or maybe it is only directed to me and you will climb out of the pit. Either way, your directing at one individual on here is just what you are doing yourself, so I guess hypocrisy rules. I hope you are now taking the banner of fighting hypocracy on Sailnet and will apply to all who post and don't just single me out. Go for it

I respect your opinion in many things technical where you obviously have expertise far more than mine. We have met and I enjoyed our conversation together and hope we get to do it again over drinks or a meal. You have been a great source of informstion . That's earns huge respect from me. Doing what you did just now does not. I assume you have felt the same as you have watched me recently in this thread.

So lets just say you re the better person here, most of the time anyway. I applaud your control. I don't process it maybe, or I don't want to maybe, and maybe in this thread particularly. Doesn't really matter as there are plenty on here who don't and get away with it all the time. You will notice that my behavior/ tone has really mainly been in this thread and does not really carry over to others. Maybe you should ask me why privately. The answer may surprise you.

Suffice it to say that my relationship to the deceased Captain was more than professional.

Dave
Dave,

I only point his out because you have so steadfastly and vociferously stated the opposite of what you are now doing. Everyone is a hypocrite including me, but when you put yourself up on a pedestal and preach it then, well........ Do as I say not as I do generally looks bad, especially when you are the loudest proponent/opponent.

Personally I found you calling Jan a "blowhard" extremely offensive so I finally had to comment. I found that a quick "rush to judgement"...;)

I still like you buddy but you have to walk what you talk, at some point...:)

I have no dog in this fight but do have opinions. Having physically walked around that vessel in the shipyard when it was "being fixed" would give you those sorts of opinions. I won't however come into the trenches because it adds nothing...

I just want to see you start to practice more of what you preach. Coming right out of the gate in this thread calling the captain of the Pride of Baltimore a "blowhard" I found utterly reprehensible, especially from YOU, of all people.....

It is hard to hold others to a higher standard that you yourself are willing to live up to.
 
#29 ·
Bounty was a XVIII century ship modified replica and of course it has not as good as a sailing ship as a modern one but that is very different to say that the boat could not sail. That boat had circumnavigated and had not done that on its engines. The first circumnavigation was made by Magalhães/el Cano on the XVI century ship and evidently their Naus could sail and I can tell you that they sailed a lot worse than the Bounty replica.:)

Regarding the Bounty, it was clearly a toy ship like ours in a sense that did not serve a commercial or otherwise needed function. I guess that what was meant was that we are toy sailors and Captains if compared with professional sailors and Captains and that in a sense is true. Of course there are some that play with their toys better than others as it is also true that most professional sailors and Captains would not know how to play with our toys.:rolleyes:

Man, I love toys:D live without toys would be very boring :p

Regards

Paulo
 
#28 ·
RC I respect that and we are still friends. It was very hard to read what the Captain of the Pride of Baltimore wrote about your friend and friend of the family. It was over the top and unprofessional IMHO and he was no friend of Robins according to his wife.

Suffice it to say I will from now on stay out of thie Bounty threads as I cannot contain myself in them obviously. Again I apoligize for my overzealous defense of my friend.

I wish on no one what this family has had to endure partly because of the social media sites and the ability for people of today to just reach out and touch people without careing about the results. It is an intrusive society we live in sometimes and when this kind of behavior finds you personally trust me you will not be equipped to deal with it as rationally as you think you will be and certainly will not be able to maintain you gentlemanly status

dave
 
#30 ·
Of course I was using a bit of hyperbole in inferring that The Bounty could not sail. Anything driven by wind across the water, I suppose, could be said to "sail." The video of this boat in a storm showed me that the definition of "sailing," was quite different on this boat from what we consider sailing on our "toy" boats. The tremendous rolling under bare poles that the video demonstrated, IMO, clearly showed some dangerous design issues. She was barely maintaining a beam reach. Many of the square-rigged ships could make 2 points to weather and could heave-to. It does not look like the Bounty was even capable of heaving to. There is no way I would have stepped foot on that rig anywhere but at a dock. No amount of ballast in that shallow hull could have adequately lowered its center of gravity far enough. In redesigning the 33% larger hull, its draft should have been close to 18' with ballast 33% lower not the 13' that they made it. It was a prop and probably should have been scrapped after using as was the original plan or at least confined to tranquil bays and docks. This boat in no way resembled some of the real square riggers such as The USS Eagle in its ability to sail.
 
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#32 ·
Because they thought they were going to make it. .
Actually, the lady (Claudene) that died had real reservations. She called her parents and said good buy, just in case we don't make it, according to a news item that was attributed to her parents.

Also, another news item, attributed to one of her friends, indicated that there had been a discussion between the two regarding the condition of the equipment and her uneasiness at the situation and this particular upcoming voyage.

No doubt the captain, for whatever reasons that he had, thought he would/could make it. And, to me and lots of others, we don't understand why....on the surface it seems to be such a foolish decision. Or maybe a case of macho...i.e. it's nothing major, we can handle it.
 
#36 · (Edited)
Except the amateurs found appropriate ways of expressing those opinions. I read it again this morning and I am just as disgusted as after my first pass last night. Whatever the substance, I don't know how anyone can defend the manner in which he attacks the deceased Captain of the Bounty.
 
#37 ·
FYI, The Weather Channel will be broadcasting a special program on the Bounty in a show entitled "Coast Guard HMS Bounty Rescue", Wednesday, December 5th. In the eastern time zone (US) the show will appear from 8:00 pm to 9:00 pm and then again from 11:00PM to 12:00AM. The program includes video from the CG's on scene SAR crews as well as interviews with survivors from the Bounty. It will be worth a watch.
 
#39 ·
It might be easier to understand where you're coming from if you made clear your relationship to the captain. It appears now you are a close friend of the captain with intimate knowledge of him and you are reacting out of emotion. Before in the other thread you had only "met" him and he only "seemed" professional and knowledgeable, and you were clear that you were not defending him.-caberg
The content of what I say has nothing to do with emotion, thats an assumption which is completely false. My relationship with him and his family has northing to do with that. Unfortunately when you try and say good things about the Captain in the face of the tidal wave of public condemnation you are branded as "defending him". I dont defend his actions and have said that over and over

The tone in which I have been saying it which others have reacted to who know me is whats in question as it is not my usual way of posting. Thats what may be affected by my realtionship with the dead Captain. I reacted in a similar tone as others when I saw others tones which although may be understandable may not have been the correct thing to do according to some. They have taken offense at my tone and have chosen to look only at my posts while making excuses or allowing simimlar tones and indiscretions from others. Where I am at fault is getting into the pit and acting like the others i have criticised instead of standing on the mountain and looking down at them. My realtionship with the family got the best of me. I am only human and could take the denigaration of a kinds mans reputation so much and I know what his family has to and continually is enduring

I beleive my friend Captain Robin Walbridge was wrong from the beginning by sailing into the hurricane. I do not defended his actions or decisions related to that. He paid with his life and cost someone else theirs. Did that warrent the public flogging he has and continues to receive? Maybe. BUut only for his action of leaving I think. IMHO I dont beleive he deserves that and the picking apart of his statements and actions for the years preceeding this incident isnt correct either. He has been made out to be a pariah.

There are others who will be also held responsible for contributing to this incident including the company as well as the lack of liscencing or correct regulatoin. Thats what I beleive the investigation will turn up.

It is those items which are actionable and can be used as lesssons to lesson the chance of this happening again. The Captain deciding to leave...I dont know any way you could prevent that again and I dont know anyway you can determine why as he is dead and you cant ask him. He was a trained captain, years of experience, and made a horrendous decision. History and daily life is riddled with people who have and do that.

Very rarely do the individuals who make mistakes have to endure the public ridicule and questioning that Waldbridge has. I know this may anger my friend Minnie, but when a pilot makes an error which brings down a plane ( an it doesnt have to be a large one) I have not seen this kind of continued personal vicious reaction I have seen here. When a train engikneer crashes a train and kills 8...you dont see this. When a honest truck driver making a living doesnt stop and kills a family on an interste, no one is camping at his house or writing about it from across the sea and the country.

The reaction to this man, this quiet honest nice man is WAY disporportionate to what happened. IMHO Sigh...but is is the sign of how our society has become attacking a dead man and his grieving family and friends to satisfy their own needs to vent no matter what the hubris is.

Again I apoligize for my tone, but I dont apoligize for what I said and beleive.
 
#47 ·
....

Very rarely do the individuals who make mistakes have to endure the public ridicule and questioning that Waldbridge has. I know this may anger my friend Minnie, but when a pilot makes an error which brings down a plane ( an it doesnt have to be a large one) I have not seen this kind of continued personal vicious reaction I have seen here. When a train engikneer crashes a train and kills 8...you dont see this. When a honest truck driver making a living doesnt stop and kills a family on an interste, no one is camping at his house or writing about it from across the sea and the country.

The reaction to this man, this quiet honest nice man is WAY disporportionate to what happened. ..
There are mistakes and mistakes. This is not a mistake but an huge error. I am only a toy airplane captain:D but I have no doubt that if an airplane commercial professional captain would have convinced the crew of his airplane to fly trough an huge storm that he new already that it was on its path when he took off, instead of enduring it on the ground or flying on the opposite direction (saying that it would be safer to do so) and as if consequence the plane was lost as well as lives you bet that on the sites related with flying the outrage would be as big as it is here and on other naval related sites.

That is not a mistake but an huge error that is not acceptable in any professional captain and that puts in question the professionalism of all sea captains.

Regards

Paulo
 
#40 ·
See it doesnt take long to prove my point

I can easily dispense such a kind of friends-Paulo
I dont find this humorous. Maybe some day someone you are friends with, in your family will make a tragic mistake. Does that mean you will abandon them?
 
#42 · (Edited)
See it doesnt take long to prove my point

Quote PCP:
I can easily dispense such a kind of friends-Paulo

I dont find this humorous. Maybe some day someone you are friends with, in your family will make a tragic mistake. Does that mean you will abandon them?
I don't understand what you mean. I am referring to the author of the article posted on the Facebook. The author was supposedly a friend of the Bounty's captain and what I am saying is that I don't consider that someone should talk like that about a deceased friend, even if he had made mistakes:confused:

Care you to explain what you mean?

Regards

Paulo0
 
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