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  #121  
Old 12-07-2012
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Well, I tried to read the other thread - got several pages in, then just lost interest.

Bottom line...I lost respect for this guy as a skipper (especially for the kind of boat he was on and the kind of crew he was in charge of) when he said "we chase hurricanes". I guess he finally caught one. Not exactly a pastime that lends itself to longevity for anyone involved.

RIP.
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  #122  
Old 12-07-2012
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Quote:
Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
Mark--It is my understanding that scudding sails (usually only one) were heavily built and roped and used in the manner of storm sails to allow a full rigged ship to "scud" before the wind and are/were decidedly different than the outboard light air Stunsails.
FWIW...
Google certainly doesn't like it, but it does stand to reason.

The bits I read on Scudding is with very little sail set, or none at all. And if a sail was used it would be t'gallants or topsails.

But the modern people may be adding to the words, which is natural.

Certainly makes more sense that Studding Sails (which, as I understand it is the correct way written, but pronounced Stuns'ls.... Of course they were all illiterate back then!)

Any investigation really needs a judge from the Master and Commander series!
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  #123  
Old 12-07-2012
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

After reading the ABC report, numerous other news reports, and watching the two Youtube videos that were posted, I believe this ship, and its management there of, had lots of problems before it went to sea in the face of the hurricane.

1) ABC described the engineer as a handyman, and there was no mention of his experience, if any with diesel engines, generators, pumps, and the like. Additionally, the article suggests that he didn't have lots of familiarity with what he had on board. I feel that this man did everything that he possibly could to keep things working, but I wonder, had there been a more qualified person in that job, would the outcome have been different? Specifically, a broken fuel guage was mentioned. Not giving out of fuel on the engines is rather important....wasn't there another way of checking fuel...a measuring tape through a fill port? But the article seem to suggest, that the guage was broken and a guess was made that they still had fuel in this tank. Couldn't they have switched to another tank with a working guage until they confirmed the fuel level in the tank with the broken guage? There was no mention, that I remember, of even topping off the fuel tanks before they left port to go into this storm. Maybe he was highly qualified...I don't know, and I do know that often the news organizations get it wrong in their reports and that they write from a standpoint to make the story interesting.

2) The crew seemed unaware that the storm was coming according to some of the reports. How could you not know? The networks were playing up the storm from the beginning. The crew members had families who were in contact, so you know they had to know. Everyone is a buzz about the storm that is going to hit the northeast and possibly NY city. And buzzing about how bad the storm is and how large.

3) In working the sails, I saw that the crew members had on safety line harnesses, but I saw only one who was hooking up or hooked up. Maybe the others were hooked in, but to me, at least, it wasn't obvious. And if I am correct, that tends to say alot about safety practices on the ship. And in working the sails, they really didn't seem to quite know what they were doing, however, in storm/bad conditions, things become more difficult and things don't always work as they should.

4) The engine room work space was cluttered and lots of things were not secured for sea, much less for a storm, rather lots of things were just laying about and loose. In no way was that ship ready to go to sea, much less going into a hurricane. Trash in the bilges is notorious for plugging pumps. (Granted that the video was not from the fatal voyage, but if it wasn't ready in one case, it was unlikely to be ready in others.)

5) The ships that I served on in the Navy had heavy weather procedures that required extra preparations to secure the ship and its gear. But there is no mention of a heavy weather procedure or special preparations before they got underway. Had they had such practices, the crew would have been working throughout the day before getting underway, just in case they might have to leave. Even at the dock, there was no mention of doubling lines and otherwise securing the ship in place. But the ABC article suggests that they were only informed that they might/would get underway one hour before they did. Even though we were not in the path of the storm, I spent a half day securing my little boat in preparation...they were in the path and then going into the storm and did nothing extra, if you believe the ABC report. And my marina, as I suspect many do, requires a detailed hurricane plan for every boat...and the marina is not going anywhere. It's written out in detail, how many lines, where they attach, what's to be removed, etc. and even has a Plan B spelled out in the event, for some unknown reason Plan A has to be aborted. Should a ship do less?

5) Giving the crew a one hour notice that we are getting underway, seems like a impulsive, knee jerk decision. The captain had to have been running through his mind how to best help his ship...stay put, move somewhere else, ride it out in the storm. And he had to be thinking about this for a long time. If everyone had been informed earlier, and they were making preparations just in case they did get underway, once the final decision had been made, giving one hour notice to decide whether crew members would go or not go is ok and reasonable. But if they were caught by surprise in the one hour framework that has been suggested, that was totally inappropriate.

6) This ship was a movie prop. As I understand it, it was originally was to be burned upon completion of the movie making. It was not and instead had a life in more movies, exhibitions, and ocean sailing. But the boat was a movie prop, and while naval architects were likely involved in designing and/or modifying the ship, they likely did it with emphasis on being a prop and exhibition ship, not one that is going to be spending its time at sea in storms and the like. Cost would increase significantly if you are building for real sea service and I think that the movie accountants would have a say in keeping movie production costs down. Consequently, in my opinion, the ship was being used in a manner for which it was not suited, especially in intentionally going to sea in extreme storms. Additionally, in the yard repairs/modifications, it seems from the reports, that finances may have been tight, in which case, decisions on what to repair, and how, were likely governed by the money available and not necessarily what was needed.

7) Someone mentioned ballast, which was typically used on those early ships in the form of rocks. No mention of ballast for Bounty. Part of the Navy heavy weather procedures for the ships that I was on was, when I served in 60's & 70's, to fill empty fuel tanks and partially filled tanks with sea water to help ballast down to assure the stability of the ship.

So the bottom line, to me, is that the more I learn about the situation, the more disturbing it is. Others may disagree.
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  #124  
Old 12-07-2012
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Well written and a lot of effort and thought.
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  #125  
Old 12-10-2012
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Quote:
Originally Posted by swampcreek View Post
"Chef,
Don't let him bother you. He even admits he is a redneck."

You say redneck like it's a bad thing!

Anyway, I jumped on board to say in support of Chef that politically we're really far apart but I consider him a friend and although we might do a friendly brush up here and there we do have in common among others things this wonderful thing called sailing. I often see Chef as we cross paths in Rock Creek and I'm happy to wave to him. I met him personally at MYC at last years Sailnet gathering and had a great time. So there Chef! You have now been supported by a redneck who actually has a "God Guns and Guts" bumper sticker on his big Ford truck, that is if you can read it through the black diesel smoke when I throttle up for yellow lights!...Sleep tight neighbor!

Just to clear up any confusion many think redneck means racist...thats liberal BS!
Here is Definition of Red Neck from Wikipedia:
Note also that definitions change over time and also different people have different definitions of what a word means (as explained in the wikipedia definition). People also define a definition.

In any case, you probably are a "Fake Redneck"From:
Urban Dictionary: fake-redneck

"1. Fake Redneck:
People who aren't truly rednecks, but more like guys who come from city/suburban to wealthy environments who will buy a truck, listen to country music and brag about "being a redneck." You can tell that they look up to people like Ron White and Larry the Cable Guy as some sort of guidence reference on how to be a redneck. They are generally all-talk, and they tend to always talk about their truck, hunting, their gun collection, country music, and the like.
FR: "So we were listening to some Toby Keith while we were muddin' in ma truck and we saw some deer and we shot them summbitches...."
Normal Person: "Oh shut the **** up you fake redneck, you're from Maryland."

2. Fake Necks 5 up, 5 down
Fake Rednecks or guys who dress up and pretend to be cowboys/rednecks to pick up girls who dig country boys.

Also guys who arent country but try to act country in order to impress girls who say they dig cowboys but dont really want to date a redneck.
Monica really likes to pick up those preppy cowboys at the bar, she is really into fake necks."

A true redneck would be driving a gas powered pickup, not diesel...
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  #126  
Old 12-11-2012
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobGallagher View Post
Again, and again, in reading the letter it appears the author has suffered a personal loss. Can't that just be respected?

Myself and another member both posted a copy at nearly the same time, although mine was second I still feel somewhat responsible. It was posted simply so that members who did not have a facebook account could read it.

I'm starting to feel sorry that I got involved.

Call it what you want, but, it's obviously about pain and expression. It's distressing that some of us cannot identify that and let it be.
Got to agree with you Rob , I read the last thread on the Bounty and tried to read all of this on too but only made it to post 32 or so ......

I know this man who wrote that letter on facebook (no not personally) and someone reposted here , reading it sent me realing .....I have just such a letter in the left inside pocket of my jacket written in 1981 damn near statment for statment just substitute Bike/Chopper/Motorcycle where ever he says Boat/Ship/Slowboat it reads the same ....The man is hurting........

I wrote that letter for myself just because I couldnt tell my friend/ brother what I wanted to YELL at him , he was dead......Why ! we were the best ! hell we tought Motor Cops how to ride for pete's sake ! how to throw a dresser down at highway speeds & PICK it back up AT SPEED & keep persuit! it's not hard just boils down to skill and YEARS of practice , hell he knew that as well as I so Why????and on and on as you might imagine.... But there wasnt anyone else to say it to , after screaming at the walls and yelling at the stars all what I wanted to say & the neighbors starting to thing I was nutz ! .....I just had to sit down and write it out and put it in my pocket and felt better and was able to go on with my life & it's been there all these years.

So I say cut the man some slack....... YOU ARE ALL to close to all this YOUR SAILORS ... this kind of stuff hits ya right where ya live hell in days of old there were men and then there were Sailors & thay were considerd better men , This bothers yall cause the longer you sail the better one gets & Masters ! hell thay ought to know it all right? ...hes just a man ....

As an Systems Analyst I know anything could of happened and the world may never know what really happened ..... physics alone may be at work ...water being at a different state/speed rudder won't act normal ? , sails fail ? heck it matters not . All that matters is 2 ppl dead and a movie prop is gone . ya I've worked in hollywood a bit in my day , that Bounty certinly wasnt any where near a ship of the line kind of build of ship ... and that might actullay be it......

Sorry if this is OT I wont be reading anymore of this thread......you guya come to internet blows all too eazy...
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  #127  
Old 12-11-2012
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
In any case, you probably are a "Fake Redneck"From:
Urban Dictionary: fake-redneck

"1. Fake Redneck:
People who aren't truly rednecks, but more like guys who come from city/suburban to wealthy environments who will buy a truck, listen to country music and brag about "being a redneck." You can tell that they look up to people like Ron White and Larry the Cable Guy as some sort of guidence reference on how to be a redneck. They are generally all-talk, and they tend to always talk about their truck, hunting, their gun collection, country music, and the like.
FR: "So we were listening to some Toby Keith while we were muddin' in ma truck and we saw some deer and we shot them summbitches...."
Normal Person: "Oh shut the **** up you fake redneck, you're from Maryland."

2. Fake Necks 5 up, 5 down
Fake Rednecks or guys who dress up and pretend to be cowboys/rednecks to pick up girls who dig country boys.

Also guys who arent country but try to act country in order to impress girls who say they dig cowboys but dont really want to date a redneck.
Monica really likes to pick up those preppy cowboys at the bar, she is really into fake necks."

A true redneck would be driving a gas powered pickup, not diesel...
Sometimes there's a real gray area though, is this real or fake?


I vote "redneck king" but I could see it going both ways.
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  #128  
Old 12-11-2012
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
After reading the ABC report, numerous other news reports, and watching the two Youtube videos that were posted, I believe this ship, and its management there of, had lots of problems before it went to sea in the face of the hurricane.

1) ABC described the engineer as a handyman, and there was no mention of his experience, if any with diesel engines, generators, pumps, and the like. Additionally, the article suggests that he didn't have lots of familiarity with what he had on board. I feel that this man did everything that he possibly could to keep things working, but I wonder, had there been a more qualified person in that job, would the outcome have been different? ....
NCC320, some time ago I have read something about that on the GCaptain forum (one of the main forum used by maritime professionals). The generalized opinion was that a professional engineer would get away from that boat really fast.

Regards

Paulo
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  #129  
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

I too read something about Barksdale, the "engineer", as being a handy man and not too familar with marine diesels. However after seeing the interview on the weather channel, I would give Barksdale the benefit of the doubt since IMHO he came across as an intelligent person who would probably do a good job even without the certifications. I was not too impressed by the other two survivors. The way I understand it is that Barksdale was asked to be engineer without much notification by his friend the first mate after the prior engineer left. You would think that the investigation would want to interview the prior engineer, but I don't have that much faith in "investigations". It's cover your ass time.
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Old 12-11-2012
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

From some of the responses to Captain Jan Miles' "open letter" I am guessing that you have no idea who he is.
I have known Jan, pronounced Yon, since the early eighties when we were both sailing vessels in the Caribbean. He is held in very high regard by his peers in the industry and has logged more miles under sail than the majority of you on this forum put together, I would imagine. He is, and has been the captain of the Pride of Baltimore, and one of the most beautiful and well known of American tall ships for many years, as well as captain of other famous and well known tall ships. He is normally a soft spoken and mild mannered man, so rather than calling him a publicity whore, perhaps you should try to understand what he is trying to impart to you "sailors".
This was a completely avoidable tragedy, perpetrated by a very experienced and knowledgeable captain.
You have no idea of what effect this will have on the commercial sailing industry, no matter that it was a completely avoidable tragedy totally the captain's fault.
When an alloy power pontoon passenger boat about 30 feet long capsized in Boston Harbor in a squall some years back, with several fatalities, the USCG, in it's infinite wisdom, decided that every passenger carrying vessel they regulate should reduce their passenger carrying capacity by 30%, voluntarily. When they approached me as captain of an 84' steel schooner built expressly to USCG passenger carrying specifications to do this, the owner and I refused. Comparing that pontoon boat to that 84' steel schooner was like comparing a 4 wheeler to a tractor trailer rig.
There is, IMO, no place on this forum for those who have not walked (sailed) in the shoes of a truly knowledgeable person like captain Miles, for comments such as those above. He is not guessing, he knows what he is talking about. He has known the Bounty and her captain for many years. The sea is a harsh mistress and those captains who make their living on her are, in the end, responsible for their decisions. The loss of the Bounty and two of her crew was not an "act of God". It was because a very experienced and knowledgeable captain made some very bad choices.
Rather than criticize others, you, as a much less experienced sailor, should make good and sure that the decisions YOU make do not cost the lives of you and those sailing with you.
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