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  #11  
Old 12-03-2012
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Quote:
Originally Posted by bljones View Post
An open letter addressed to, and attacking, a dead man. Classy. On Facebook, no less, a long estabished bastion of maritime knowledge.
I'm no naval architect or credentialed bluewater sailor, or anybody with intials following my name on my business card, but i can recognize a cheap attention-whoring bitch- move when i see it.

Since the letter was dated yesterday, Roger, I am not sure how lost it would have, or could have, been in the "morass" of the thread to which it pertains.

The wrong boat was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
That's the lesson. It really is simply that simple. Any more pontificating by those of us who weren't there, no matter what our credentials, is simply dancing on graves. The skipper bears the burden of his decisions and paid the ultimate price.
A psychic likely has more credibility than a retired naval architect at this point, since the psychic can at least hazard a guess as to what the skipper was thinking when he made the diecisions he did. an NA can hazard a guess as to why the boat reacted as it did.
In all fairness, in reading the letter it appears that the writer has a personal connection to one that was lost. If I may be so bold; If it was you, or I, who lost someone we may need an outlet and it could all be part of the process.

"On facebook, no less" Well, that's how the world communicates nowadays. We may not like it, but, it's a major part of how most people who communicate on line do communicate. If it's not facebook it's linkedin or google+ or, well, sailnet. Sailnet is nothing more or less than an elderly tunnel vision version of facebook...except sailnet is trying to get us to buy something directly from them rather than just outside advertisers.

Respectfully.
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  #12  
Old 12-03-2012
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Closing the barn door after the horse is gone--Hind sight is 20/20....Dale
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  #13  
Old 12-03-2012
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Wow we have finally found the long lost missing naval writer for the National Enquirer. He surfaced just in time to give us his prose filled insightful opinion of I tragicly poor decision.

Hopefully he devotes as much energy to keeping his boat safe and analyzes his decisions as thoroughly after the fact.

Bravo for becoming the second blowhard of the thread Bounty threads

Dave
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“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner

Last edited by chef2sail; 12-03-2012 at 03:02 AM.
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  #14  
Old 12-03-2012
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

I think the flames above are missing the point, perhaps because of not knowing who the author of the letter is. One seems to think I wrote it. I didn't. Do some Google research on Jan C. Miles.

Sure, the same things have been said but not yet by a professional peer and friend of Wallbridge. Jan is actually more than a peer given his level of experience. I've know him since 1983 and he has been involved with sailing vessel losses and safety issues more than all but a couple of sailing ship masters.

I'm not going to pass judgement on the tone or the content. The anger I can certainly understand. The industry Jan had given his life to has been badly damaged, a beautiful ship is gone, and friends of his are dead. He is a lot closer to this than anyone who has posted here or elsewhere.

The facts are fairly clear. A lot of armchair or toy boat sailors could have written much the same letter as a post here and it would not have had the same significance. I think it's worth noting that Jan is saying these things because of who he is.
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Old 12-03-2012
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Roger,

I lot of good blue water sailors and professionals have written things here and in other posts without the overdramatization this man did. It did nothing to help find anything new which had happened, it did nothing to she'd new light, it did nothing to help change things in the future learning from the experience. It was a prose full colorful bloodletting loading of personal feelings which probably made the poster feel better , but showed absolutely non of his professionalism or sorrow which you interpret as anger. His musings might as well have been as one of the arm chair quarterbacks or toy boat sailors.

BTW some of the toy boat sailors ( as you in your snarky way described some of us) and arm chair quarterbacks display far more common sense thn your so called professnionls.walbridge was a professional and this writers professionalism is certainly called into play as much by his statements on Facebook.

Roger, I looked him up on Google big deal. It makes it all the more embarrassing to read what/how he wrote. Since you claim to know him maybe you do you could communicate to him how unprofessional is posting was and unrepresentative of true professionals in the industry. I would not have a lot of confidence in someone who posts and writes like he was doing an article for the National Enquirre as he did.

This in no way exonerates Walbridge of responsibility for his actions.
Dave
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“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner

Last edited by chef2sail; 12-03-2012 at 03:36 AM.
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  #16  
Old 12-03-2012
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
BTW some of the toy boat sailors ( as you in your snarky way described some of us) and arm chair quarterbacks display far more common sense thn your so called professnionls.
Not intended to be snarky. I was professionally involved with boats, mostly commercial ones, all my life. However, when it comes to operating them, I am a toy boat sailor myself.

As for professionals showing less common sense than an amateur, that is the absolute heart and pivot point of this whole story. Any details that the investigation will probably focus on such as what bilge suction might have clogged or even what plank might have popped loose are fairly insignificant. These are just the kind of things that sink ships in heavy weather. The real issue is why was the ship there in a storm of this magnitude and (according to forecasters' discussions at the time) unpredictability.

After all that has been said here and elsewhere, I don't think we are any closer to understanding the decisions made by the captain than when it first came to notice that the ship had left port. The harsh things said here about Jan's writing are addressing a different subject. To me, the fact that someone of his experience is left so mystified by what Wallbridge did as to have written such a letter is significant. The fact that Jan can't contribute much to our understanding of how this happened and is so perplexed is the story.

Posters all over the Internet have pointed to Wallbridge's experience and suggested it proves he must have known what he was doing, taken a calculated risk, and had a bit of bad luck. They have it backwards. It is the amount of his experience that makes this story so mystifying. I think we have to look deeper than poor decision making here for the true causes.

People like Dan Moreland of the Picton Castle and Jan are not saying, as they could have about many accident scenarios, "There but for the grace of God, go I." Something out of the ordinary happened here and I'm not referring to the weather. Jan's letter simply drives that home.

Last edited by Roger Long; 12-03-2012 at 06:55 AM.
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  #17  
Old 12-03-2012
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Simple explainations are better. I dont want to psycoanalyze this Captain. How can you do that he is dead. He cant tell you why. Besides it doesnt matter

Its enough for me to know he knew the danger....he choose to ignor the omnipresent storm which continued to grow and was forecasted to enlarge....he sailed right at it and when presented with opertunity to correct his mistake by running for port choose not to insyead placed himself beetween it in the Gulf Stream at the graveyard of the Atlantic Cape Hatteras

I disagree fundementally with you...there is nothing to be learned more about that part of the scenario. I also think that there is no way no improve or legislate greater safety into his internal mind decision, he left port and sailed into a hurricane period. Thats the most fundemental fact which has been verified already and we need no investigation for.

I also disagree that other ancilliary issues which actually sunk the ship eg leaking planking, lack of proper redundant systems, poor design, lightening of the overall keel weight etc are found out tha we could in the future make these ships safer, inspectable at any weight, look more carefully at design, require more qualified seaman, change the regualtory requirements etc can still be ascertained from the investigation of the actual vs hersay or speculated facts.

Quote:
Not intended to be snarky. I was professionally involved with boats, mostly commercial ones, all my life. However, when it comes to operating them, I am a toy boat sailor myself-Rogerlong
.

But you continue to be dismissive of many of us with your language " toy boat sailor" so your statement of not intended snarky continues to be disingenuine. And by the way you titled the thread " An Informed Opinion of Bounty" as opposed to what .....what others are posting.....because why...because you and your friend are professionals and you look down upon the rest of the boating community as just "toy boaters" who in your opinion are less serious than you. Remember its the professionals who gives us the Bounty, Casta Concordia, Titanic, Exon Valdez etc. It has been well established that the liscencing and professional marinaer may on paper be safer or nore well versed or even may have more experience, but none of that means more common sense.

Your friend wrote a prose filled letter to a "dead" man with only one intention. To make his own person FINAL sarcastic morose shot at him without response which acomplished nothing other for him to vent his professional spleen in a public unprofessional manner. You can afix any motives you want to this sir, but that is how some, maybe most ( I am not sure peoples perceptions have been of his diatribe as has been posted already) is. Had he had any balls he would have gone to the gravesite and read it Walbridge himself or stood up before a group of you so called professionals and read it out loud.

In life peoples perceptions can be their realities and it makes no difference how it was intended. Just like I am sur Walbidges perception of what he was doing leaving the dock...didnt equate to the reality of our perceptions. Why he left doesnt matter, he did. Why he left doesnt absolve him of the ultimate responsibility of the fate of the Bounty
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Last edited by chef2sail; 12-03-2012 at 08:51 AM.
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  #18  
Old 12-03-2012
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Quote:
He does offer an interesting opinion of the options that Wallbridge didn't take, of running for shelter once he realized that it was an absolute certainty that he was going to run headlong into Sandy. He is asking - why not run up the Hudson? Or later on, up the Delaware? Yes, he is making a point. Its a mystery.
I beleive this was asked before and not just a revelation from this guy. He had many options top abort. He could have come in NY Harbor and up the Hudson, He could have come up the Delaware River, He could have come into the Chesapeake even at the last minute and taken refuge in the Norfolk area. He didnt do any, but just barreled along
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Old 12-03-2012
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Long View Post
One of the handful of people on the planet whose opinion I believe most qualified on a matter like the Bounty loss has spoken out.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/jan-c...74315806048123

....
After reading the letter, I don't think it was written for public consumption so much as it is/was an expression of mourning and catharsis for the author. Facebook is/was just the tablet akin to audible/visible mourning, rending of ones clothing and smearing ones face and clothing with ashes, all "public" displays of profound sorrow/sadness. Cut the author a little slack.
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Old 12-03-2012
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Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Wow we have finally found the long lost missing naval writer for the National Enquirer. He surfaced just in time to give us his prose filled insightful opinion of I tragicly poor decision.

Hopefully he devotes as much energy to keeping his boat safe and analyzes his decisions as thoroughly after the fact.

Bravo for becoming the second blowhard of the thread Bounty threads

Dave
Dave,

You are doing EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY what you have vociferously opined against for weeks... Your post above is "arm chair quarterbacking" by a "computer screen" expert at its best and WREAKS of blatant hypocrisy... Seems you DO have an opinion just like everyone else and you are going to state it, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE....

Was it not you who said this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail
There will be plenty of time to understand and process the facts and I am sure it will be done by real experts on the field and real lawyers rather than the computer screen lawyers here. Then and only then will we really have the truth about this. Until then tell me....what pleasure do you derive from speculating on this.

Dave

What pleasure do you derive from being one of the main drivers of the continuation of the HMS Bounty topic on SN? What pleasure do you derive brushing off anyone with an "opinion" differing from yours as an "armchair lawyer" or "arm chair quarter back"...?

What pleasure do you derive from referring to a well respected tall ship captain as a "national Enquirer" writer & calling the captain of the Pride of Baltimore a "blowhard"......?? Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .

Have you forgotten that Jan is not a "writer" at all and is merely stating his FEELINGS after WAITING for nearly a month after the death of what he considers a friend? He waited to post this and still apparently has a LOT of anger over this. I don't consider his writings all that good but he did not "rush to judgement" and he did wait to write his "open letter" almost a month...That to me says something, not sure what, but I feel his pain.


Jan can certainly be considered a "real expert" on tall ships, a peer to Walbridge and one of the foremost "experts" on that type of vessel and the sailing of them. His OPINION was what he wrote. he apparently feels Walbridge left a bad mark on the rest of the fleet. These are his feelings and OPINION as an "expert", something you actually asked for in the other thread..

Apparently you have decided you don't like his writings so resort to name calling and denigrating his OPINION of a lost friends actions as "National Enquirer" level writings and to him personally as a "blowhard".... That, I FIND UTTERLY OFFENSIVE especially coming from YOU who has spent countless hours per day at your keyboard taking up a stance against ANYONE with an OPINION or "rush to judgement" that is different from yours on this matter.......


You also said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail
My biggest problem with the postings are the rush to judgement to afix blame on the captain entirely, and then the glee to assassinate his character. This isnt done by a group of savy well experienced ocean and blue water sailors ( my apologies to the few who have this experience) but is being done by the armchair quarterbacks who start analyzing the situations as soon as the story comes apparent. It leads to this feeding frenzy which can prevent them from looking and absorbing other details as wells as focusing on unimportant snippets of u tube postings as the paramount reasoning. Its like its a story of thodse damn shows following network news at 7 PM. The SN jury has already found the captain guilty as charged and not even waited for any evidence of the companies pressure or involvement, statements from the survivors, or statements from professionals.
and this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail
Funny many of the interviews I have seen with the Captains professional aquaitences do not paint a picture of a reckless man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail
Just a side note the Captain of the Pride of Baltimore interview today says hes witholding jusdgement until more facts come forward and the inquirey by the GC is done.
Now we do have a statement from the captain of the Pride of Baltimore who is not only a professional or "acquaintance" but a peer and one of the foremost experts on tall ships and you dismiss his OPINIONS as "National Enquirer" and call him a "blowhard"....? Wow!!!

Hypocrisy 101...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail
Ever notice the TRUE professioals are not predisopsing themselves to conclusions here?
Um now I guess the captain of the Pride of Baltimore will get dismissed as not a "TRUE professional"....?

No offense to you personally I just find a gross level of hypocrisy on your part on this entire matter.. That is my "opinion", but perhaps not a fact....

You have also used numerous offensive terms in this and the other thread. Far more than Rogers "toy boat sailor" comment yet you again go at him very hypocritically and call him out on his comment being offensive..

So how is "toy boat sailor" any more or less offensive than your name calling of other SN members? Like........


"armchair lawyer"
"armchair quarterbacks"
"blowhard"
"amateur sleuths"
"Salinet pundits"
"internet jockey"


Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail
Is civility no longer part of our culture where we feel we ll have the right to judge...and then post out feelings with no regards to the people involved.

You asked that last question, not I..
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 12-03-2012 at 12:19 PM.
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