An Informed Opinion about the Bounty - Page 7 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree97Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #61  
Old 12-04-2012
GeorgeB's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Alameda, San Francisco Bay
Posts: 1,503
Thanks: 1
Thanked 36 Times in 35 Posts
Rep Power: 10
GeorgeB is on a distinguished road
Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Chef – perhaps you can provide some insight? Who were the owners of HMS Bounty II? And what was the their relationship with Wallbridge? Has anyone put together a chronology of the past few years? I read that the ship has been up of sale since 2008 and for $4.3m(?). Somewhere during that time there was a major refit ($?) and that it cruised to England. My only thought is I’m a little surprised that the chief engineer was not a permanent paid position. I would have thought that would be the guy to help supervise the refit.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #62  
Old 12-04-2012
Retired Naval Architect
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: ON S/V Strider
Posts: 141
Thanks: 1
Thanked 8 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Roger Long is on a distinguished road
Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

I started this thread because I believe that the people best informed to comment on an event like this are those who have been out in the dark in traditional wooden ships with lives entrusted to their care. If their writing style, tact, perspective, and level of emotionalism doesn’t pass muster with a group like this, it doesn’t change the fact that they are speaking as people who have faced the same pressures, dangers, and decisions as Wallbridge.

I’ve been quite involved with the issues of sailing vessel safety and losses over the years. The author of the letter was the person sent by the original Pride organization to assist the survivors and do the first fact finding right after her loss. He called me from the airport on his return to be informed with my perspective before reporting to the board. The British government hired me as their primary technical analyst and consultant for the inquiry into the loss of the “Marques”. I will lay claim to being a bit more than just “a retired boat designer” as someone posted above.

Since I am retired, this is the first such incident since I came on the scene thirty years ago in which I have not been in direct personal or email contact with survivors, organization personnel, or investigators. I’m still in the network though and something very different stands out about this event.

Back when the Exxon Valdeze was still major news, I was in a board meeting with three tanker captains, two of whom had been master of vessels on that same route. I said something along the lines of, how could a guy like Hazelwood have become master of a ship that could create such devastation? All three instantly said that, no, he was a very competent guy and it could have happened to anyone of them. They went on to say that they had just been to a professional gathering of, I’ve forgotten exactly, but something like twenty tanker captains. These guys reported that they had discussed the grounding there and, to a man, every captain said it could have happened to them.

This, “There but for the grace of God go I.”, point of view has been a dominate feature of every peer discussion of a vessel loss that I have known. What is significant to me is how little of it I am hearing in this case. Whatever you may feel about the way he expressed it, that is the significant point of Jan’s letter.

And, it isn’t just Jan. I’ve heard from others who have not been referred to here. You can see it simply in the AIS web site displays that were posted before the vessel was even experiencing mechanical and water ingress problems. Every ship in the eastern north Atlantic is scattering like a crowd on a city street that looks up and sees a piano falling. Just one vessel is going the other way. This was the real time judgment of the masters of container ships, tankers, and other craft with a much greater probability of surviving an encounter with the storm than a wooden replica of an 1800’s vessel.

Operator error and mistakes are an inevitable part of every transportation system. However, there are some decisions that have to be put in a different category. Everything that I can discern about the judgment of his peers tells me that they see this as being one of those.
mstern likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #63  
Old 12-04-2012
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,968
Thanks: 29
Thanked 54 Times in 50 Posts
Rep Power: 7
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Quote:
One thing I have not posted here which I guess I should. Like wingnwing I have been on the Bounty and met the captain. If someone asked me for a judgement of him, and this is a big time snap judgement, he seemed professional, knowledgeable about his ship, a teacher of others and dedicated to his responsibility for the ship and its crew.chef2sail
Thats what I said and from that I should have posted more? I was not misleading, dont feel I should be accused by any of you, and dont feel i have the right to make a judgement of him other than a snap judgement even though I was around him half a dozen times

So here is my story for the doubters ( pick away at it as I am sure you will)

My recollection times may not be truly correct.
I first met Robin when I was 40 or so and I had placed 4 seascouts in a program on a vessel of one week in the Florida Keys somewhere around 1993. He had spoke at workshop/ meeting I was attending in Philadelphia on motivating you teenages and adults. I was impressed with his kindness and what appeared to be a caring for kids. I felt he would connect with them easily. The boys came back after a week with him raving about him and idolizing him and what they had learned. I was then I vowed if I could expose my daughter ( a rteeneage) who enjoyed sailing to him I would.

I got the oppertunity in 1994 or so when I was contacted by him that he was working on the HMS Rose a ship built to replicate a real British warship and that he was doing sail training in New England. I spoke at length with him on the phone and then talked to my daughter and she was off for a week that summer to " learn" how to work on the ship. When I arrived with her at Newport we met the ship and I spent a nice evening with Captain Baily and FM Walbridge having a few drinks and a long converstaion about sailing, kids and other things. I felt fully confident trusting her with them for a week. MNy daughter raved about how much Robin had taught her about the sea and how patient he was.

Later my daughter went back with two of her girl friends for a 2 week sail down the East coast on the Rose. Robin was already on the Bounty.

Robin and exchanged letters occasionally and Christmas cards each year and I eventually met up with him ( and Claudia his wife) in Fall River, Mass. I spent 4 days on the ship with him just putzing around as the ship was undergoing some work.

In 1999 or aoround then my daughter met his stepdaughter Shelly wjile on a one week sail onboard the Bounty.

I saw Robin 2 more times...I think it was 2010 in Newburgh NY on the Hudson where I had dinner with him and once again in Wilmington NC of this year.

I dont claim to know this man well. I havent been around him dozens of times so I guess I am not qualified to judge his character/ I am not a cult follower as those who truly admired this man have been called. Just notice, that almost all of the people who have known this man have nothing bad to say about him. Oh maybe a few self serving professionals who may have resented him true, but the people who sailed with him...NADA. That alone should maybe be a clue into his character.

Not once have I really posted against anyone who said his decison was dumb, and cost the lives of both people and his ship. Where I find umberage has always been at the characterization of the captain as this reckless, idiot, unqualified, egotistical cult leader. Its not how I and others have found him who knew him casually as I did or more intimately who sailed with him.
He is characterized as caring, safety conscious, teacher and knowledgeable.

The man made an agregious mistake. It cost lives. Had he lived he probably would not be able to live with himself.

But I guess our society has come to this. We are a society of fingerpointers and always looking to find the worst in people and when we dont find it we either let the news media or our social media make it up and blow things out of porportion. Because we can we can sit home and run down people on line, call them liars, ruin their reputations without repudiation or even them fighting back. Funny when a living person fights back with the same tactics. they are called a hypocrite. Such is the rule of the mob.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner

Last edited by chef2sail; 12-04-2012 at 03:15 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #64  
Old 12-04-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,166
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Long View Post
...

Operator error and mistakes are an inevitable part of every transportation system. However, there are some decisions that have to be put in a different category. Everything that I can discern about the judgment of his peers tells me that they see this as being one of those.
Yes, I agree. That is also the global consensus on the original Bounty thread.

I guess that if he had survived there would be a strong possibility to be accused of involuntary manslaughter and stand trial, like is going to happen possibly to Costa Concordia Captain.

There are gross errors that are just not admissible in any professional Captain (or any other qualified profession) and that leave questions about the competence of all the others. In that sense I understand why the author of that open letter, specially being another tall ship captain, come forward (as other tall ships Captains) stating that what Bounty's Captain had done was wrong and unacceptable.

I still don't like the way he had done it.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-04-2012 at 03:07 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #65  
Old 12-04-2012
casey1999's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: HI
Posts: 2,845
Thanks: 4
Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts
Rep Power: 4
casey1999 is on a distinguished road
Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Chef,
Unfortunately commercial airline Captains are only as good as there last landing. That is what they are judged on. If after 30 years with a stellar piloting record, they screw up and crash a plane due to their own negligence, they are done. The US Navy practices the same policy for their ship Captains.

I guess tall ship Captains should be judged differently.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #66  
Old 12-04-2012
MarkofSeaLife's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,237
Thanks: 28
Thanked 57 Times in 53 Posts
Rep Power: 4
MarkofSeaLife is on a distinguished road
Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal Paradise View Post
Hey - anyone else notice that Walbridges' abrupt turn to the west on the 27th coincides with Sandy taking an abrupt turn to the east?

Maybe he was hedging his bet which way Sandy would go and he then chose to just go the opposite way.
I am a bit more antagonistic against the Captain.

I was watching this storm and the NOAA predictions and I thought there were WILDLY stupido to say the hurricane would come up over Jamacia, over Cuba, due north over Bahamas then west a bit, then North again, then due east for a moment then curve slowly to hit New York.
I thought they couldn't possible have a prediction five days out like that. BUT THEY WERE RIGHT! NOAA was absolutely SPOT ON from days and days before. No one has given them credit for how accurate they were, remember Jersey Shores invoked a state of emergency three days before it hit.

The other bit I don't believe, but this is more of a gut feeling is the idea he wanted to save the ship by being at sea. That just doesn't wash with me. I don't get the vibe, and its only a vibe, that human behavior does this. I think he wanted to prove the world wrong. I think he wanted to show his ship wasn't a bucket of waste trash held together by rust, by going out into a hurricane path that he thought was wrongly predicted.

If he had been sucessful he could have arrived in port and said: well I knew the hurricane would go that way, and I knew my boat could do,this....
That's what I think it was. Vanity. Narcissism. He wanted to prove to captains of container ships that he wasn't a second rate captain in their estimation, but their equal. If a container ship can go to sea in a hurricane he wasn't going to hide in port. If a container ship captain gets paid $200,000 per year that's what he was worth too... Even though he may only have been paid, say $50,000 per year.

And that, if correct, damns the captain. And would be a good reason why he did not reach a life raft. He knew he couldn't survive to tell the tale.
__________________
Sea Life
Notes on a Circumnavigation:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by MarkofSeaLife; 12-04-2012 at 04:25 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #67  
Old 12-04-2012
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,968
Thanks: 29
Thanked 54 Times in 50 Posts
Rep Power: 7
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Quote:
I think he wanted to prove the world wrong. I think he wanted to show his ship wasn't a bucket of waste trash held together by rust, by going out into a hurricane path that he thought was wrongly predicted.

If he had been sucessful he could have arrived in port and said: well I knew the hurricane would go that way, and I knew my boat could do,this....
That's what I think it was. Vanity. Narcissism.markofsealife
Your gut feeling....but it goes against everything anyone who knew the Captain personally (not what has been written about him) says about him icluding the survivors
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #68  
Old 12-04-2012
casey1999's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: HI
Posts: 2,845
Thanks: 4
Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts
Rep Power: 4
casey1999 is on a distinguished road
Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
I am a bit more antagonistic against the Captain.

I was watching this storm and the NOAA predictions and I thought there were WILDLY stupido to say the hurricane would come up over Jamacia, over Cuba, due north over Bahamas then west a bit, then North again, then due east for a moment then curve slowly to hit New York.
I thought they couldn't possible have a prediction five days out like that. BUT THEY WERE RIGHT! NOAA was absolutely SPOT ON from days and days before. No one has given them credit for how accurate they were, remember Jersey Shores invoked a state of emergency three days before it hit.

The other bit I don't believe, but this is more of a gut feeling is the idea he wanted to save the ship by being at sea. That just doesn't wash with me. I don't get the vibe, and its only a vibe, that human behavior does this. I think he wanted to prove the world wrong. I think he wanted to show his ship wasn't a bucket of waste trash held together by rust, by going out into a hurricane path that he thought was wrongly predicted.

If he had been sucessful he could have arrived in port and said: well I knew the hurricane would go that way, and I knew my boat could do,this....
That's what I think it was. Vanity. Narcissism. He wanted to prove to captains of container ships that he wasn't a second rate captain in their estimation, but their equal. If a container ship can go to sea in a hurricane he wasn't going to hide in port. If a container ship captain gets paid $200,000 per year that's what he was worth too... Even though he may only have been paid, say $50,000 per year.

And that, if correct, damns the captain. And would be a good reason why he did not reach a life raft. He knew he couldn't survive to tell the tale.
I think you are spot on, including the ending. I was also amazed at how accurate the extended forcast was, especially in this day and age where the media tends to hype up the bad weather forcasts. I thought the forcast was a lot of hype, but they were right. Maybe the Capt thought the same thing.

When the crew was attempting to abandon ship, the Capt was not seen. Where had he gone?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #69  
Old 12-04-2012
MarkofSeaLife's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,237
Thanks: 28
Thanked 57 Times in 53 Posts
Rep Power: 4
MarkofSeaLife is on a distinguished road
Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

That's a great graphic!


It does show his dilemma. But he was still wrong because he turned into the Gulf Stream. Wind against waves.

you Americans you a phrase no one else uses (I love the phrase)... "Double guess". He has tried to double guess it and failed. His chess game, as you put it, was lost a long time before. Like many, professionals or amateurs, of the old school they don't believe the modern technology. If he believed NOAA they would have been right. Well, no, not really, because they NEVER made any easting!
chef2sail likes this.
__________________
Sea Life
Notes on a Circumnavigation:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #70  
Old 12-04-2012
bljones's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: South Coast Ontario
Posts: 8,152
Thanks: 32
Thanked 72 Times in 65 Posts
Rep Power: 7
bljones has a spectacular aura about bljones has a spectacular aura about
Re: An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Long View Post
I started this thread because I believe that the people best informed to comment on an event like this are those who have been out in the dark in traditional wooden ships with lives entrusted to their care. If their writing style, tact, perspective, and level of emotionalism doesn’t pass muster with a group like this, it doesn’t change the fact that they are speaking as people who have faced the same pressures, dangers, and decisions as Wallbridge.

I’ve been quite involved with the issues of sailing vessel safety and losses over the years. The author of the letter was the person sent by the original Pride organization to assist the survivors and do the first fact finding right after her loss. He called me from the airport on his return to be informed with my perspective before reporting to the board. The British government hired me as their primary technical analyst and consultant for the inquiry into the loss of the “Marques”. I will lay claim to being a bit more than just “a retired boat designer” as someone posted above.

Since I am retired, this is the first such incident since I came on the scene thirty years ago in which I have not been in direct personal or email contact with survivors, organization personnel, or investigators. I’m still in the network though and something very different stands out about this event.

Back when the Exxon Valdeze was still major news, I was in a board meeting with three tanker captains, two of whom had been master of vessels on that same route. I said something along the lines of, how could a guy like Hazelwood have become master of a ship that could create such devastation? All three instantly said that, no, he was a very competent guy and it could have happened to anyone of them. They went on to say that they had just been to a professional gathering of, I’ve forgotten exactly, but something like twenty tanker captains. These guys reported that they had discussed the grounding there and, to a man, every captain said it could have happened to them.

This, “There but for the grace of God go I.”, point of view has been a dominate feature of every peer discussion of a vessel loss that I have known. What is significant to me is how little of it I am hearing in this case. Whatever you may feel about the way he expressed it, that is the significant point of Jan’s letter.

And, it isn’t just Jan. I’ve heard from others who have not been referred to here. You can see it simply in the AIS web site displays that were posted before the vessel was even experiencing mechanical and water ingress problems. Every ship in the eastern north Atlantic is scattering like a crowd on a city street that looks up and sees a piano falling. Just one vessel is going the other way. This was the real time judgment of the masters of container ships, tankers, and other craft with a much greater probability of surviving an encounter with the storm than a wooden replica of an 1800’s vessel.

Operator error and mistakes are an inevitable part of every transportation system. However, there are some decisions that have to be put in a different category. Everything that I can discern about the judgment of his peers tells me that they see this as being one of those.
All that being said, Roger, doesn't change the fact that there are other, better, worthier ways to express grief and an informed opinion than a pontificating, sermonizing open letter to a dead man.
A solid resume and years of experience doesn't give anyone a pass on being a jerk. A cheap shot is still a cheap shot, no matter how credentialed the marksman. At least where I come from- your standards might be lower.


btw, I referred to you on the first page of this thread as a retired NA because that is how you refer to yourself- right there, upper left of each of your posts, under your username. I know and respect your CV, Roger, having enjoyed the input you have offered here, on the WBF and even on the CBC. But, you and jan and any of the other credentialed experts on ship handling and construction who have offered input on this tragedy are no more psychic than I or anyone here- we can all see the end result of the event cascade that took place, but none of us can say with certainty what the captain's intentions, thoughts, or plans were- we weren't there, and he's not here, unlike Capt. Hazelwood.
__________________
It's 5 o'clock somewhere:


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by bljones; 12-04-2012 at 06:05 PM. Reason: abominable typos
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rhodes Bounty ll white rabbit Introduce Yourself 3 07-13-2014 05:00 AM
HMS Bounty in trouble... jimjazzdad Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger 1949 03-03-2013 10:50 AM
Hms Bounty - alot more than meets the eye ArmchairsailR General Discussion (sailing related) 8 11-09-2012 01:49 PM
The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy JulieMor General Discussion (sailing related) 97 11-09-2012 11:32 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:01 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.