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  #91  
Old 12-27-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Not all Americans that used to sail good traditional old American sailboats think like Jon, even if I think you guys are exaggerating in what regards what jon thinks about modern production boats.

Anyway Steve posted this on the interesting sailboat thread and I don't think he minds if I repost it here. It is a very interesting post, obviously from a very experienced sailor:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post

Sorry had a post almost done when I received an email to do a weather routing through the convergence zone.

A bit of history. My wife and I are old Yankee New Englanders who have sailed from when we were small kids. Being yankee we are also very traditional when it comes to boats. That was until our last crossing of the Pacific starting in 2007 in our Mason 44. In the S. Pacific we started seeing these aluminum centerboard, mostly Ovni's and Garcias cutter rigs. On board were French cruisers with if I might say,"shat eating grins" on their face. They were coming back from Antartica , sailing to atolls we could only sail by because we had too much draft. But always in love with their boats. Those boats for their size were fast but comfortable, one can throw out all the old math for waterline and stability. Both my wife Tracy and I started to see something new, something to understand and research, something we N. Americans were not hearing much about.

We sold our Mason in NZ because our kid wanted to go to High school and not be home schooled anymore. As he was about to graduate and get kicked out of the house my wife mentioned we should get a new boat instead of a used boat. And that it better be a French aluminum centerboard design. Wow what a lucky man I am, eh! We did our research on the Ovni and Garcia and a few others. Then a cruising friend who himself was looking for something in the same lines mentioned Boreal. There was not much information, same as there is now but there was something I really liked about the design, Function and Form.

I contacted all the yards and gave them my sad story about selling our last boat and looking for a new one. I heard back from Boreal and they loved the old yankee designs and thought I would love to see and sail something new and amazing. They invited me over but said I needed to stay for a week so I could not only understand the boat but also how they build them. So I went.

So that started a damn good friendship and business association. On my last day I simply shook hands with Jean-Francois Delvoye, the designer of the Boreal 44 and Jean-Francois Eeman his business partner and told them to build me a boat just send me the paperwork.

That is how it started. We have been very happy over the first year of building, don't get me wrong we have our disagreements but easily solved with real discussion on boat design. Remember Function/form is what it is about. ...

he first thing that caught our interest in the Boreal 44 was the dog house. Fully watertight with a 360 degree view for bad weather and night watches. Even in the tropics we have found that late nite early morning watch cool and wet on a 25 kts beam reach. The dog house is set up with a chart table big enough to lay 2/3 size charts out flat. There is room for two to sit in the doghouse and there is room for most of your electronics. Also a place for the epirb and ditch bag.

Next thing was hull design: With the aluminum chine hull, the centerboard and the two dagger boards which give this cutter rigged boat great stability in sailing a strait line. We figure that we are going to come very close on a lot of days to 200 miles. Reason is the modern hull design and shape and those dagger boards. As most of you who own a true cutter rig you know the wobble where the stern seems to be moving starbord and port. Looking at your wake you see your not sailing perfectly strait. But on the Boreal put the lee dagger board down and the boat tracks true. While on a trial sail we didn't do anything special in trimming sails and I left the helm un attended for 45 minutes and the boat sailed perfectly strait in 15 kts of wind on a beam reach then tried a broad reach. If you put the auto pilot on and set a course then just sit around and watch the DC amp meter needle, it just does not move, the auto helm is not using much juice if any. I realize we didn't have big seas but still that is an astounding accomplishment in boat design in my opinion. I'm looking forward to see how the Wind Pilot self steering will work. We will be the first Boreal to have anything but auto pilot, the designer thinks I'm crazy to be putting one on his boat as there is little stress on the auto pilot.

Next on our list was storage. I hate anything on deck on passage, at a marina or at anchor. With the Boreal there is never a need to keep anything you don't want on deck there. The large lazzerette in the stern fits the inflatable and the outboard. No I can't have a hard rib any more and I'll miss that but at least I do not have to ever do a long passage with the rib on deck and an outboard on the back stanchion. Cabin storage is perfect and easy to get to. Our Mason had 87 total lockers of all sizes, the Boreal I do not think has that many but I believe it may have as much storage space....

There have been many great and you can say famous sailors who have had the chance to sail the Boreal and swear it is the best boat of this kind they have ever sailed. There are great stories on Attainable Adventure Cruising on the Boreal and the experts there are very impressed. Also maybe soon a very famous sailor, a true hero in his/her country may be ordering a Boreal 44. I will not mention name for privacy.

I want everyone to know that as great as this boat is there are compromises just like on any cruising boat. But one nice thing is the entire team at Boreal is interested on making things better and some times less French as they now have customers from all over the world.

More reasons we picked the Boreal over the Allures as both are strong tough boats but we felt the Boreal was a little more what we call industrial and we could work with the designer to customize.

If you look at the cleats on deck between the two boats there is a major difference. The Allures are more standard design that you see on most sailboats. They are also through bolted because of fiberglass deck. On the Boreal the cleats are welded not only to the aluminum deck but have struts under neath and those are welded to deck and hull on the inside. They are also big enough to take a two inch line. That is something we see in far off places when you have to tie with a commercial fishing vessel or a stone pier. We had Boreal design a Sampson post for our bow, again it will come in handy in out of the way places. I wish boats would still put Sampson Posts on boats that are going off shore.

We are also having a one inch high aluminum rib around the front and sides of all are deck hatches for protection. Again an old idea that is important to extreme conditions and use, just not seen anymore. We will also go with Goiot Hatches much stronger and safer than Lewmar hatches. No plastic locks or handles.

Please ask questions if you have any. If I can answer your questions I will.

I know, I know! I'm obsessed with our new boat but how can I not be we are getting so close to June sea trials and putting everything in order to go cruising again.


..
Boreal is a small French shipyard that makes production voyage boats with some space for customization. Allures and OVNI that are a much bigger shipyards are the main competition.

I know that according with the Smack definition this is not a production boat, but it is according to mine. It is just a type of boat more specialized than the all around basic cruiser that are proposed on the bigger mass production shipyards and therefore has a smaller demand.

Even mass production shipyards diversify its demand in what regards different types of cruising boats, some times having several lines like Benetau or Like Hanse and Bavaria owning several companies that produce boats for different market segments.

Last edited by PCP; 12-27-2012 at 01:57 PM.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Jon,

I read John's (Morgan's Cloud) articles you linked above. And though they're pretty good, there's this...

Quote:
Our own Morgan’s Cloud, designed by Jim McCurdy, has a tiny interior for her size and her fine ends make the lazarette and forward cabin cramped. But she can slug it out to windward for days on end, never pounding and rarely bringing green water on deck.

Yes, I know, ladies and gentlemen don’t go to windward and nobody believes that more than I. But if you really go out there voyaging, sooner or later you won’t get a choice; the wind will be forward of the beam, maybe for days on end. When that happens it is vital that you have a boat that doesn’t make the experience any more uncomfortable than it has to be, or worse still, dangerous.

I'm sorry, but the idea of enduring a "tiny, cramped interior and poor aft storage" for the entirety of my sailing life - just so I can finally be happy when the weather finally swings around on my nose for a day or two, and I can fly both the jib and yankee and as I slug it out to windward, only puking 3 times instead of 6, and going 1 knot faster than that production boat behind me.

Nope, just not a convincing argument. I'd rather slow my production boat down a bit and eat some gnocchi as I stretch out in my ginormous modern cabin wondering why that dude in the old boat in front me is working so hard.
Did you read his article on the Hull form of the Adventure 40, as well? No reason the interior of such a boat MUST be cramped, or tiny, of course...

Funny, John just posted this to his site a few days ago, emphasis mine:

Quote:

“Fun Tax”

I got an email from yacht designer Ed Joy, about something else, to which he added the following:

"I agree with the sentiments in your hull form article. Racers having great fun scampering downwind on their sleds are dreading the “fun tax” that must be paid when it’s time to harden up the sheets – not acceptable on a cruising boat."

I have seldom heard it said better.

This And That For December 2012
Oh, well... What would a guy like Ed Joy know about cruising boats, anyway?

Lyman-Morse 55 - Offshore Cruising State of the Art
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Last edited by JonEisberg; 12-27-2012 at 11:49 AM.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
I have not looked at paulo's video, but somewhere on U-tube is Hunter's how they in water test boats. yes, one of the tests is running aground at hull speed! I believe there is a video of a European builder doing the same, DuFour?!?!?! also what would be a production boat builder in the same genere of J, B, H and C.
My point, to which Paulo replied, was that I would not care to venture into a remote cruising destination with an underbody that featured a keel with as narrow a chord as a boat like the Hanse 415...



There's some pretty compelling reasons why you don't see (sensible) sailors taking boats with such high-aspect foils to places like, say, Labrador...

Perhaps foremost, is a phenomenon of Physics known as "Leverage"... It's the reason why I swapped out Brit Chance's very scary "Shark Fin" popular in the early 70's, for the much more moderate Beavertail I now have on my own boat...






Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Then there is also a story of a Jeanneau SO37 that was in charter, one person hit a rock, keel fell off unbeknown to the charterer. Another took the boat out for a week, then the 2nd person brought the boat back saying it was not sailing well, only THEN to find out the keel has fallen off 2 weeks/charter's before!

High volume production boats are bad?!?!?!? I Do not think they are "that" bad!

Marty
Yeah, I've heard that one before... Do you happen to have a cite for that story? I've always thought that one just might have gotten stretched somewhere along the line, just a bit... (grin)
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Old 12-27-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Paulo,
Thanks for the post on the Boreal 44. I did a quick Google search and it's a really interesting boat. Sail away would be about $460,000 US for a true custom go anywhere boat. A cost that's in-line with a lot of 44's, though out of my price range.

Cool boat.

Jim
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Old 12-27-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Did you read his article on the Hull form of the Adventure 40, as well? No reason the interior of such a boat MUST be cramped, or tiny, of course...

Funny, John just posted this to his site a few days ago, emphasis mine:



Oh, well... What would a guy like Ed Joy know about cruising boats, anyway?

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Yeah, I read both articles. And, you're right, his Adventure 40 article was much more "progressive" in its premise.

To be sure, I have absolutely no grounds to say you, John, or EJ are "wrong" in any way. You guys are in a different universe than I am when it comes to sailing. I readily admit that.

But, as a very interested, motivated sailor/consumer, I'm just saying that most of the arguments being made against newer boats are just not that convincing (even when they come from very knowledgeable dudes) - especially when put up against the type of sailing the vast majority of people will ever do...even in blue water.

It simply comes down to priorities. And I personally am not willing to sacrifice speed, space, and modern comfort during the ~95% of the time I'll sail in my lifetime, for the potential discomfort during the ~5% imposition of the "fun tax".
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-27-2012 at 01:23 PM.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
.....It simply comes down to priorities. And I personally am not willing to sacrifice speed, space, and modern comfort during the ~95% of the time I'll sail in my lifetime, for the potential discomfort during the ~5% imposition of the "fun tax".
This is exactly how one should buy a boat. Spec the one that you will actually use for its intended purpose 90% of the time. Way too often, people buy the boat they need only 5% of the time.

We wanted a big cockpit to entertain and have the kids around on our coastal cruising. Not ideal for a trip to Bermuda, but it won't stop us from going.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
My point, to which Paulo replied, was that I would not care to venture into a remote cruising destination with an underbody that featured a keel with as narrow a chord as a boat like the Hanse 415...



There's some pretty compelling reasons why you don't see (sensible) sailors taking boats with such high-aspect foils to places like, say, Labrador...

....
Sorry but I don't understand your point. It has all to do with the way the keel is fixed to the hull and the way the forces are redistributed. There are several thousands of Hanses out there, some doing the Hobart, others circumnavigating and I never heard about a single one with a keel problem. Several thousands of boats and you will not find any reference to keel problems in the google. Even so you thing the keels are fragile?

Looking to Hanse keel and to your boat keel what I see is an older designed less efficient keel in your boat and a modern efficient keel in the Hanse.

I would take a new Hanse in the right season everywhere ans even in the wrong season it seems to me that the Hanse 415 would be certainly faster and probably more seaworthy than your boat, since it is a bigger boat with a considerably bigger area under the RM curve and a good AVS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post

Quote:
“Fun Tax”

I got an email from yacht designer Ed Joy, about something else, to which he added the following:

"I agree with the sentiments in your hull form article. Racers having great fun scampering downwind on their sleds are dreading the “fun tax” that must be paid when it’s time to harden up the sheets – not acceptable on a cruising boat."


I have seldom heard it said better.

This And That For December 2012
Oh, well... What would a guy like Ed Joy know about cruising boats, anyway?

After all it seems I was wrong and that you really believe old designed boats are better and more seaworthy than modern designed boats

So Ed Joy thinks that way, Yes he designed some beautiful boats, not many, mostly classic and of course everybody can have an opinion but the more successful NA, the ones that made major contributions to modern Yacht design would not agree and that's why they design modern boats, even bluewater boats the way they do. Not one but almost all of them (if not all major ones).

Regarding that story of old designed boats being better to bluewater cruising that don't make sense. Jimmy Cornel can explain you why. He circumnavigated several times in all kinds of boats and ended up having what you would consider an unsuitable boat with a pretty flat bottom and a beamy hull. He recommends that kind of sailboat to any blue-water cruiser (a beamy aluminum center-boarder).

Also some years ago the Shards had opted for a beamy modern boat to continue their wanderings and those two are sailing for many years on old designed sailingboats. They say wonders about the new boat. They liked so much that they have already changed it by a bigger one from the same brand.

Do you really think that all the top NA are wrong and you and Ed Joy right?

Of course nothing wrong in preferring to sail in a less efficient sailing boat, an older one, but that does not mean that new ones have not a better overall performance and that's why they are designed the way they are, even bluewater boats.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-27-2012 at 02:53 PM.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
My point, to which Paulo replied, was that I would not care to venture into a remote cruising destination with an underbody that featured a keel with as narrow a chord as a boat like the Hanse 415...



There's some pretty compelling reasons why you don't see (sensible) sailors taking boats with such high-aspect foils to places like, say, Labrador...

Perhaps foremost, is a phenomenon of Physics known as "Leverage"... It's the reason why I swapped out Brit Chance's very scary "Shark Fin" popular in the early 70's, for the much more moderate Beavertail I now have on my own boat...








Yeah, I've heard that one before... Do you happen to have a cite for that story? I've always thought that one just might have gotten stretched somewhere along the line, just a bit... (grin)
Hard to argue with your point, but I think that's not necessarily addressing the question, or at least not the question as I understand it. Would you be concerned about cruising a modern "production boat" (whatever the heck that actually means) up and down the US east coast, Bermuda, Bahamas, Med, to/from El Carib, French Polynesia, just to name some of the more well-travelled cruising grounds?

I'm asking because I think I actually agree with your view, but I think everyone on this thread might be separated by a common language, so I think a straight-up answer to the above probably gets a lot of people going, "Oh! Yeah, I agree with that. I thought he was saying that he would never cruise in a production boat." On the other hand, I could be wrong and your answer might continue to drive the conversation.

I do agree completely, by the way, that if I'm doing Antarctica, or even rounding the Horn, I'm not doing it in my Beneteau. I'm doing it in something far more substantial with a different design. Likewise, as I said before, there's no getting around the fact that nicer boats are in fact nicer (that's why they're nicer). Just can't compare the fit and finish of an HR with a Beneteau. Absurd, in my opinion, even to argue otherwise.

Jon, by the way, what kind of boat are you picturing? Feel like I should know, but can't place it.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Did you read his article on the Hull form of the Adventure 40, as well? No reason the interior of such a boat MUST be cramped, or tiny, of course...

Funny, John just posted this to his site a few days ago, emphasis mine:



Oh, well... What would a guy like Ed Joy know about cruising boats, anyway?

Lyman-Morse 55 - Offshore Cruising State of the Art
Interesting as rthe Mason 43/44 and the Saga 43 are on my wife and my short list. We have put two bids on two different masons, but the owners just thought they were to good to come down in price.

I just PM Hannah for feedback on the Mason
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Jon, I see you 'got rid' of that skinny skeg as well... I presume that was a big improvement too?
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