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  #101  
Old 12-27-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
This is exactly how one should buy a boat. Spec the one that you will actually use for its intended purpose 90% of the time. Way too often, people buy the boat they need only 5% of the time.
Couldn't have said it better.
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  #102  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Chef, I just PM you.

Mason owners don't come down in price but I am seeing some reduction over the last 3 years.

We sold ours in NZ in a down economy for more than we paid for it, put into it and sailed it for 2 years across the pacific. A couple from Europe flew in and loved it offered me a price that made sense to me. Most likely lucky but a lot of sailors wanted it.

They hold a good value because they are a very well made boat and they are beautiful to look at. I miss that look but we are moving on to something much more important to us. A modern centerboard boat that really sails. Just think of the anchorages in the Bahamas that few can get to.
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  #103  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Been following this thread now for days and have greatly benefited from the "wisdom" of our senior members. Explored many of the boats mentioned especially the Boreal 44/6. Their cds and our corespondance furthered my interest. However bringing the rode to the mast base, worrying about electrolysis and having a "european galley" not so much. Rather have a good gyradius by having all the tankage in the center of the boat. Ended up with an Outbound as I think Carl was ahead of his time. The basic design for the 46 is now ~13y.o. but every one shows evolutionary changes with significant advancements from the one before. This is a feature I think one sees more commonly in small run "production boats" be they from scandinavia,France,Netherlands, China, US, New Zealand or south africa. The basic tooling and the molds are fixed but it seems more problematic for the large manufacturers to make major changes to the infill and vendors of components. Think my new "house" will be safe,weatherly and fast with a excellent comfort motion. With a hard dodger and bimini comfortable in all climes improved. As you spend more time below than above and as little time as possible at the wheel the modern comforts and beauty of the internal structure are important. As with everything you get what you pay for and when dealing with the variables of mother nature moderation may have it's virtues.
My impression that the Atkins derivatives ( valiants/PSCs etc.) or other "slack bilge" designs still may make more sense below ~40' for a voyaging boat but above that modern hull design shines?comments. Still nervous about the hull lights/ports seen in recent designs. ?Anyone one have problems with those or the large runs of glass on the houses. ? Wonder what our senior members think is the "ideal size " for a boat. Once heard it said that due to the physics of our oceans and weather 40-50' allows for the best compromises in design.
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  #104  
Old 12-27-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
...
Mason owners don't come down in price but I am seeing some reduction over the last 3 years.

We sold ours in NZ in a down economy for more than we paid for it, put into it and sailed it for 2 years across the pacific. A couple from Europe flew in and loved it offered me a price that made sense to me. Most likely lucky but a lot of sailors wanted it.

They hold a good value because they are a very well made boat and they are beautiful to look at. I miss that look but we are moving on to something much more important to us. A modern centerboard boat that really sails. Just think of the anchorages in the Bahamas that few can get to.
Well, after this year's season I guess you will know enough to make a full comparison in what regards sailing. It is booked then, I mean that comparison.

I guess we are all very interested and this is the right thread to do it.

Regards

Paulo
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  #105  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

But, as a very interested, motivated sailor/consumer, I'm just saying that most of the arguments being made against newer boats are just not that convincing (even when they come from very knowledgeable dudes) - especially when put up against the type of sailing the vast majority of people will ever do...even in blue water.

It simply comes down to priorities. And I personally am not willing to sacrifice speed, space, and modern comfort during the ~95% of the time I'll sail in my lifetime, for the potential discomfort during the ~5% imposition of the "fun tax".
Well, I can't help but notice the irony of the guy who's all about "Big Freakin' Sails" is the same one most determined to ignore the perspectives offered by those who have actually DONE some truly Big Freakin' Sailing... (grin)

OK, here's another to dismiss... John Neal, with 300,000+ miles in the South Pacific, Caribbean, Patagonia, Antarctica, Atlantic, Scandinavia and the Arctic, has likely seen his fair share of Big Freakin' Sailing...

Quote:

Windward sailing performance is nearly as important as passage-making speed. On the other extreme, a very modern, light displacement boat with a flat entry may tend to pound when sailing to windward and may lack directional stability when sailing downwind with large following seas. The ability to sail off a lee shore in an emergency is dependent on windward performance.

Mahina Expedition - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising
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  #106  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, I can't help but notice the irony of the guy who's all about "Big Freakin' Sails" is the same one most determined to ignore the perspectives offered by those who have actually DONE some truly Big Freakin' Sailing... (grin)

OK, here's another to dismiss... John Neal, with 300,000+ miles in the South Pacific, Caribbean, Patagonia, Antarctica, Atlantic, Scandinavia and the Arctic, has likely seen his fair share of Big Freakin' Sailing...
I'm not ignoring those perspectives at all. I'm just balancing them with the body of other sailors that have also done their share of serious BFS'n, yet prefer the more modern designs...as well as the general industry itself which has moved away from the deep/long/heavy design paradigm.

As PCP says above, today's NAs can't all be stupid.
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  #107  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:

Windward sailing performance is nearly as important as passage-making speed. On the other extreme, a very modern, light displacement boat with a flat entry may tend to pound when sailing to windward and may lack directional stability when sailing downwind with large following seas. The ability to sail off a lee shore in an emergency is dependent on windward performance.

Mahina Expedition - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising


Windward sailing performance is nearly as important as passage making speed - I agree and I agree also that some modern boats have a problem here, not in normal conditions but with bad weather and waves. Even regarding mass production boats there is big differences. For instance an Oceanis 41 may have a problem with that, the Hanse 415, the Jeanneau 409 or any of the performance cruisers will not.

On the other extreme, a very modern, light displacement boat with a flat entry may tend to pound when sailing to windward - Yes, it will pound more than a boat with more rocker upwind in waves. Mass production cruisers more than performance cruisers that have finer entries.

light displacement boat with a flat entry ... and may lack directional stability when sailing downwind with large following seas. - - Assuming the boat is well designed and modern mass production boats are, this is a complete nonsense. Quite the contrary modern mass production beamy boats with all beam brought back are designed that way precisely to be more stable sailing downwind. The influence and knowledge comes from the open boats that are designed to sail downwind over 20K on autopilot.

The ability to sail off a lee shore in an emergency is dependent on windward performance. - That's obvious isn't it?

.....

Last edited by PCP; 12-27-2012 at 07:37 PM.
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  #108  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Sorry but I don't understand your point. It has all to do with the way the keel is fixed to the hull and the way the forces are redistributed. There are several thousands of Hanses out there, some doing the Hobart, others circumnavigating and I never heard about a single one with a keel problem. Several thousands of boats and you will not find any reference to keel problems in the google. Even so you thing the keels are fragile?
Sorry, I guess you missed my point...

I was simply saying that if I were ever to suffer a hard grounding in a remote location, I would much prefer to do so on a boat with a longer, more moderate keel, than one similar to that seen on the Hanse...

Simple physics, damage at the hull-to-keel joint is much less likely to be catastrophic, if the forces of impact are spread out across a longer hull section, than if confined to as narrow a chord length as the keel on that Hanse... I can't imagine any experienced high-latitude voyager, such as John Harries, endorsing such an underbody for that type of sailing... the late Ned Cabot was the rare exception, cruising the Arctic in his J-46, which is still a fairly moderate design compared to a boat like today's Hanse 415...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Regarding that story of old designed boats being better to bluewater cruising that don't make sense. Jimmy Cornel can explain you why. He circumnavigated several times in all kinds of boats and ended up having what you would consider an unsuitable boat with a pretty flat bottom and a beamy hull. He recommends that kind of sailboat to any blue-water cruiser (a beamy aluminum center-boarder).

Also some years ago the Shards had opted for a beamy modern boat to continue their wanderings and those two are sailing for many years on old designed sailingboats. They say wonders about the new boat. They liked so much that they have already changed it by a bigger one from the same brand.

Of course nothing wrong in preferring to sail in a less efficient sailing boat, an older one, but that does not mean that new ones have not a better overall performance and that's why they are designed the way they are, even bluewater boats.

Regards

Paulo
I'm quite familiar with the Alubats and Southerly's, thanks... I helped bring an Ovni north about 10 years ago, it was a wonderful boat that would suit me quite nicely... My only real complaint, when that aluminum hull started pounding a bit, that was probably the noisiest boat I've ever sailed on...

I've always been a big fan of the old "whale-bottom" keel-centerboarders of Ted Hood's - some of the sweetest-sailing, most seakindly boats I've ever sailed...

And, I love the centerboard designs of Craig Walters, it's a pity more of them weren't built... The Clearwater 36 from Holby Marine, and the Seguin 40 from Lyman-Morse, both definitely on my short list of Dream Boats, I love that concept...

Evans Starzinger, however, is not entirely convinced re boats like the Alubat... He says that he's never encountered one in the Southern Ocean/high latitudes, that hasn't had their spreaders in the water more than once... (grin)
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  #109  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Okay - so this thread seems to be drifting a bit toward the "Interesting Sailboats" thesis (which is obviously awesome due to the number of views it's had)...

SO, let me try to put a finer point on where we are...

Jon, if I look at your citations, I see a lot of very experienced sailors preferring and extolling the heavier/deeper/longer design paradigm.

BUT (and this is one big-ass but) - the justification for those preferences hinge on sailing in places like the Southern Ocean, Labrador, Antarctica, and the Capes...and/or through very serious storms.

Now you and these guys ACTUALLY DO sail in places like that and in conditions like that. So these perspectives are definitely hard-won and valid.

THAT SAID, what the hell does that have to do with typical cruising? And why would I buy a boat that is specifically suited for Labrador or Cape Horn when I have absolutely no desire to take my boat to those places?

THIS is the issue at the crux of the "blue water" debate.

If "blue water" means, at the outside, the Coconut Run - this entire debate becomes silly. What modern production boat CAN'T handle the Coconut Run? Seriously.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-27-2012 at 08:19 PM.
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  #110  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Been following this thread now for days and have greatly benefited from the "wisdom" of our senior members. Explored many of the boats mentioned especially the Boreal 44/6. Their cds and our corespondance furthered my interest. However bringing the rode to the mast base, worrying about electrolysis and having a "european galley" not so much. Rather have a good gyradius by having all the tankage in the center of the boat. Ended up with an Outbound as I think Carl was ahead of his time. The basic design for the 46 is now ~13y.o. but every one shows evolutionary changes with significant advancements from the one before. This is a feature I think one sees more commonly in small run "production boats" be they from scandinavia,France,Netherlands, China, US, New Zealand or south africa. The basic tooling and the molds are fixed but it seems more problematic for the large manufacturers to make major changes to the infill and vendors of components. Think my new "house" will be safe,weatherly and fast with a excellent comfort motion. With a hard dodger and bimini comfortable in all climes improved. As you spend more time below than above and as little time as possible at the wheel the modern comforts and beauty of the internal structure are important. As with everything you get what you pay for and when dealing with the variables of mother nature moderation may have it's virtues.
My impression that the Atkins derivatives ( valiants/PSCs etc.) or other "slack bilge" designs still may make more sense below ~40' for a voyaging boat but above that modern hull design shines?comments. Still nervous about the hull lights/ports seen in recent designs. ?Anyone one have problems with those or the large runs of glass on the houses. ? Wonder what our senior members think is the "ideal size " for a boat. Once heard it said that due to the physics of our oceans and weather 40-50' allows for the best compromises in design.
You've made a great choice, IMO... I love the Outbound, that's just too much boat for me (financially, of course, but size-wise, as well...)

An Outbound scaled-down to about 40 feet, however - for me, that would represent absolute perfection... As to your question re size, 38-40 is my ideal, but that's just me... I'd never want to own anything more than about 44', most anything I deliver bigger than that scares me... I suspect they scare many of their owners as well, that's why I get the call (grin)

good luck with her, what a beautiful boat...
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