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  #111  
Old 12-27-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

thank you. Jon
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  #112  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Jon, from your posts, I get the sense that sailing is something to be endured, and not enjoyed. Do you see it as a challenge to be conquered or a way to relax?
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  #113  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Okay - so this thread seems to be drifting a bit toward the "Interesting Sailboats" thesis (which is obviously awesome due to the number of views it's had)...

SO, let me try to put a finer point on where we are...

Jon, if I look at your citations, I see a lot of very experienced sailors preferring and extolling the heavier/deeper/longer design paradigm.

BUT (and this is one big-ass but) - the justification for those preferences hinge on sailing in places like the Southern Ocean, Labrador, Antarctica, and the Capes...and/or through very serious storms.

Now you and these guys ACTUALLY DO sail in places like that and in conditions like that. So these perspectives are definitely hard-won and valid.

THAT SAID, what the hell does that have to do with typical cruising? And why would I buy a boat that is specifically suited for Labrador or Cape Horn when I have absolutely no desire to take my boat to those places?

THIS is the issue at the crux of the "blue water" debate.

If "blue water" means, at the outside, the Coconut Run - this entire debate becomes silly. What modern production boat CAN'T handle the Coconut Run? Seriously.
Your right Smackdaddy, even production boats do the milk run. But remember **** happens on the milk run too. Our last trip from Bora Bora to Samoa, I think it was 2 Tayanna 52's and one Linn and Larry style boat got knocked down. They all survived and they all had good stability numbers so what does that mean? But if your going to have the chance of a good knock down or some better than worse weather then choose your production boat carefully. Some hold up better than others and I hope new cruisers and old alike take that into consideration before buying and setting sail. But your right they all can make it.

What are your concerns with the production boats you are interested in? If you are a sailor I'm sure you have had a few sleepless nights thinking about all that can go wrong with your boat.

I think when buying any boat one should only look at the down side first then if your convinced you can live with the bad then the nice things about the boat shine.

Cheers

Last edited by hannah2; 12-27-2012 at 08:04 PM.
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  #114  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielgoldberg View Post
Hard to argue with your point, but I think that's not necessarily addressing the question, or at least not the question as I understand it. Would you be concerned about cruising a modern "production boat" (whatever the heck that actually means) up and down the US east coast, Bermuda, Bahamas, Med, to/from El Carib, French Polynesia, just to name some of the more well-travelled cruising grounds?
In general terms, of course not...

However, there are many examples of the generic "modern production boat" on which I would not do so... Primarily for reasons of things like deck and cockpit ergonomics, which I refer to often, the sort of stuff that is typically of designing boats from the inside-out, or for charter service, as so many production boats are today...

One thing really bothers me about "today's production boats" when being considered for such duty, however... Namely, the difficulty in finding out the LPS for a particular model, from a particular manufacturer... If, indeed, all these production boats are good to go for a Milk Run Circumnavigation, why aren't those stability numbers part of their marketing? Can anyone tell me what the LPS of a Hunter 50, for example, is? One would think if all these production boats had impressive Limits of Positive Stability, it would show up SOMEWHERE in their marketing, no? Why do such numbers appear to be held in comparative secrecy by most production builders today? Wouldn't by any chance be because many of them might be, at best, MARGINAL, no?

But, in general, I still tend to favor the older iterations of most production boats... The older Frers-designed Beneteau First 38 & 42, for example, I'd take one of those anywhere I'd ever care to sail, just a wonderful boat...

I'll admit, probably due to the fact I do so much singlehanded sailing, I'm rather obsessive about safe decks, and minimizing the likelihood of falling off the boat... Probably my single biggest gripe about many of today's boats, I find the decks on so many them to be appallingly bad...

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielgoldberg View Post
Jon, by the way, what kind of boat are you picturing? Feel like I should know, but can't place it.
Pretty rare boat, it's an old Chance 30-30, built by Allied in 1970... Brit Chance design, mine is Hull #1 originally launched as BOOMERANG, which compiled an impressive racing record in her day, on LIS and the Southern New England circuit... I've added a lot of weight, probably raised the waterline about 5 inches... (grin)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Jon, I see you 'got rid' of that skinny skeg as well... I presume that was a big improvement too?
As I'm sure you know, Brit Chance was known for doing some strange things to the rear ends of boats... (grin)

Yeah, that original skeg was a joke... More of a hydrodynamic element than anything else, it certainly didn't offer much in the way of structural support...

The original rudderpost was only1 1/4 bronze, which I thought was a bit under what it should have been. So, I rebuilt the rudder as well, using a length of 1 5/8 Nitronic 50 rod that had been clipped off of a 170' Perini Navi... That rudder is now about as bulletproof as it will ever be, I would guess...

I converted it to a more balanced spade, built the leading edge out about 15% of the chord length forward of the post... that resulted in a HUGE improvement, it's very nicely balanced, now...

I should mention I received SUPERB advice from our moderator Jeff H throughout my keel and rudder project... Anyone who knows Jeff appreciates how generous he can be with his knowledge, and support... I'll never be able to repay him for the help he gave me, and he was absolutely spot on in every dimension, etc, that he suggested... The guy knows his stuff, BIGTIME...

Last edited by JonEisberg; 12-27-2012 at 08:23 PM.
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  #115  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
What are your concerns with the production boats you are interested in? If you are a sailor I'm sure you have had a few sleepless nights thinking about all that can go wrong with your boat.
Han,

I guess I'm wired a bit differently. I don't think about my next boat primarily based on what can go wrong.

For example, if I take your scenario listed above, not even the Tayana 52 or the L&LP-style is enough of a boat to handle those conditions. So should I go still heavier, older, longer to make sure I can be "comfortable" in such conditions?

Again, I base my decision on what I will be doing out there 90+% of the time.

Is it possible that I'll get caught and knocked down? Sure. But will I definitely die in a production boat whereas the Tayana just gets a knockdown? I seriously doubt it...based on many stories I've read of production boats in such conditions.

Now, again, you've done the run between Bora Bora and Samoa. I haven't. I'm still just under 1,000 miles in off-shore runs. But I've read many, many accounts of sailors with varying degrees of experience that have done so on pretty low-level production boats and have done just fine. So what does that tell me?

Someone show me the stats where production boats are regularly failing and sinking in serious conditions and I'll believe.

If you can't do that - then there's something else at play in the examples typically offered up such as the Rule 62 tragedy, etc. It ain't the boat.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-27-2012 at 08:17 PM.
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  #116  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Jon,

HERE you go on the SO37 that lost a keel. I believe there was also an article in the UK Yachting rag too.

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  #117  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Paulo,

Up late this morning, did not have time to look at that video you posted this morning, and thank you for linking the Hunter and DuFour test grounding video's.

Now will see how much time I have to play on the puter a it is after work, about 5pm drink time or some such thing!

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  #118  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Sorry, I guess you missed my point...

I was simply saying that if I were ever to suffer a hard grounding in a remote location, I would much prefer to do so on a boat with a longer, more moderate keel, than one similar to that seen on the Hanse...

Simple physics, damage at the hull-to-keel joint is much less likely to be catastrophic, if the forces of impact are spread out across a longer hull section, than if confined to as narrow a chord length as the keel on that Hanse... I can't imagine any experienced high-latitude voyager, such as John Harries, endorsing such an underbody for that type of sailing... the late Ned Cabot was the rare exception, cruising the Arctic in his J-46, which is still a fairly moderate design compared to a boat like today's Hanse 415...
What I meant is that the Arctic or Antarctic are not shallow places and you can very well manage your draft. You just need to be careful. On those latitudes what you need is not a different keel but a steel or Aluminum boat.

Regarding resistance I have seen recently a very light performance cruiser with this type of keel(Sydney) to be pounded and through over rocks and the keel remained on one piece, or a Mini racer thrown to a beach and then pulled back to the sea by a fishing boat with no problems to the keel. I guess that you have little confidence in modern materials and building techniques even if they obviously provide strong solutions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I'm quite familiar with the Alubats and Southerly's, thanks... I helped bring an Ovni north about 10 years ago, it was a wonderful boat that would suit me quite nicely... My only real complaint, when that aluminum hull started pounding a bit, that was probably the noisiest boat I've ever sailed on...
...
Evans Starzinger, however, is not entirely convinced re boats like the Alubat... He says that he's never encountered one in the Southern Ocean/high latitudes, that hasn't had their spreaders in the water more than once... (grin)
Well, than you should know that the Southerly is a very different boat compared with the OVNI, heavier and with an overall stability that is better than most fin or full keel boats. On the Southerlies the centerboards are nor really centerboards but ballasted swing keels. They have ballast on the keel and on the bilges.

Regarding the OVNI, the Boreal and the Allures are much more stiff boats with an AVS similar to most fin keel cruisers. They have a very good dynamic stability in nasty weather with the centerboard up ( not tripping on the keel) and at the same time have a comparable static stability with most fin keel keelers.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Smackdaddy,

It is not about dying in a knock down but what can happen to some production boats that might not happen to others. Most boats can survive the knock down but remember we are out sailing to enjoy life. And with that in mind there is nothing worse than a boat not designed to take a knock down. The owner has to live with the aftermath of a knock down.

Will all your lockers open flying perfectly good stuff into crap. Does your wife like doing stitches on your forehead because the locker locks were not made to a very good standard.

Will the boom hold up on a knock down when the reefed main fills with water and the boat rights itself. Does that production boat have as good a goose neck as the other production boat.

How about the companion way is it made as well as some other production boats, will the boards be pushed through on a knock down, does it even have storm boards?

How did the port lights do in the knock down? I'm sure they must be OK.

Those engine mounts, fuel tanks are they good enough to survive or are they there to ruin your beautiful cruise if by chance you get knocked down.

Like a lot of fine sailors here have said the deck is everything, does this deck compare to the deck of another production boat? I don't know if you have ever gone forward even on a boat with good deck in a storm, especially at night. Just plain scary but sometimes it has to be done. I would not wish that on anyone even my best enemy on some production boats mentioned.

Sometimes we worry on forums about boats and death, we are human. But when I'm at sea I want to have already worried what could go wrong with the boat I own and know I did the best I could in choosing some type preventative selection. Not just because this type of boat has crossed oceans countless times.

You do not have to choose a bigger boat, you just need to understand what you could be getting into. Look for the bad stuff first and honestly see what you can live with. The nice stuff about a production boat is always there for the many days we enjoy sailing. But it takes only one bad day to ruin a lot of good days that lay ahead.
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Last edited by hannah2; 12-27-2012 at 08:47 PM.
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  #120  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
... Ended up with an Outbound as I think Carl was ahead of his time. ..
Yes, I agree. The design of the hull is advanced for its time and the overall shape is still quite modern:



Only on the keel and ruder design we can notice some differences to what is done today.

Regards

Paulo
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