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  #121  
Old 12-27-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninefingers View Post
Jon, from your posts, I get the sense that sailing is something to be endured, and not enjoyed. Do you see it as a challenge to be conquered or a way to relax?
LOL! Well, certainly some deliveries turn out to be "endured", but once I'm on my own boat, the intent is purely for pleasure. I can assure you...

No question, I can enjoy the challenge, and often find it a bit difficult to completely escape from the "delivery mode"... I favor going places, than sitting in any one for very long, so I tend to keep moving at a pretty good clip, that's part of the enjoyment for me, no question...

However, my reason for sailing is, ultimately, for relaxation... In case you haven't noticed, one of the few things that consistently get me bent out of shape, is seeing so many other sailors out there not "relaxing" as I am, but rather motoring through ideal sailing conditions... (grin)

It's a big part of my arguing in favor of more seakindly boats, after all... Day after day offshore in boats more towards the performance end of the spectrum can often be very tiring and uncomfortable, I'll gladly accept a bit of a tradeoff for a ride more relaxing...
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  #122  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Jon,

HERE you go on the SO37 that lost a keel. I believe there was also an article in the UK Yachting rag too.

marty
thanks, Marty... Amazing story...
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  #123  
Old 12-27-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
...
Jon, if I look at your citations, I see a lot of very experienced sailors preferring and extolling the heavier/deeper/longer design paradigm.

BUT (and this is one big-ass but) - the justification for those preferences hinge on sailing in places like the Southern Ocean, Labrador, Antarctica, and the Capes...and/or through very serious storms.

Now you and these guys ACTUALLY DO sail in places like that and in conditions like that. So these perspectives are definitely hard-won and valid.

THAT SAID, what the hell does that have to do with typical cruising? And why would I buy a boat that is specifically suited for Labrador or Cape Horn when I have absolutely no desire to take my boat to those places?

THIS is the issue at the crux of the "blue water" debate.

If "blue water" means, at the outside, the Coconut Run - this entire debate becomes silly. What modern production boat CAN'T handle the Coconut Run? Seriously.
And that is not even true. An Allures 45 weights 11 800kg and has 4.43m of beam. A Boreal 44 has 4.30m of beam and weights only 10290kg. This is pretty light for a 44/45ft boat and pretty beamy too. However those are just the boats that today are designed to extreme voyaging. Take a look at this one:



Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-27-2012 at 09:10 PM.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
Your right Smackdaddy, even production boats do the milk run. ... But if your going to have the chance of a good knock down or some better than worse weather then choose your production boat carefully. Some hold up better than others and I hope new cruisers and old alike take that into consideration before buying and setting sail. But your right they all can make it.....

Cheers
I fully agree. Many seem similar and are quite different, not on the interior or sailing in good weather, but going in nasty weather against the wind or when knocked down. If you have some practice you can just access it by the beam, type of hull, type of keel, draft and B/D ratio but a look at the stability curve is a much easier way.

Cheers

Paulo
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  #125  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
Smackdaddy,

It is not about dying in a knock down but what can happen to some production boats that might not happen to others. Most boats can survive the knock down but remember we are out sailing to enjoy life. And with that in mind there is nothing worse than a boat not designed to take a knock down. The owner has to live with the aftermath of a knock down.

Will all your lockers open flying perfectly good stuff into crap. Does your wife like doing stitches on your forehead because the locker locks were not made to a very good standard.

Will the boom hold up on a knock down when the reefed main fills with water and the boat rights itself. Does that production boat have as good a goose neck as the other production boat.

How about the companion way is it made as well as some other production boats, will the boards be pushed through on a knock down, does it even have storm boards?

How did the port lights do in the knock down? I'm sure they must be OK.
I don't know how you feel about the Najad 38 - but here's what it looks like after a knockdown off Cape Horn:





That's Jeanne Socrates' boat (http://synereida.livejournal.com/113101.html). Definitely not a "production boat" in the context of this thread.

Real knockdowns are rough on any boat apparently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
Like a lot of fine sailors here have said the deck is everything, does this deck compare to the deck of another production boat? I don't know if you have ever gone forward even on a boat with good deck in a storm, especially at night. Just plain scary but sometimes it has to be done. I would not wish that on anyone even my best enemy on some production boats mentioned.
Yeah, I've worked the foredeck in the past few off-shore races I've been on...in fairly stinky weather...at night. I get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
Sometimes we worry on forums about boats and death, we are human. But when I'm at sea I want to have already worried what could go wrong with the boat I own and know I did the best I could in choosing some type preventative selection. Not just because this type of boat has crossed oceans countless times.

You do not have to choose a bigger boat, you just need to understand what you could be getting into. Look for the bad stuff first and honestly see what you can live with. The nice stuff about a production boat is always there for the many days we enjoy sailing. But it takes only one bad day to ruin a lot of good days that lay ahead.
This part I totally agree with.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-27-2012 at 10:01 PM.
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  #126  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

I have a 2012 Beneteau 41.

Really big cockpit, comfortable layout below, super easy to maneuver around the dock and a delight to sail on the Chesapeake. Easy. Fast. Friendly. Exactly suited to the kind of sailing we really do.

Is it a floating condo? No. Though we do weekend on it, comfortably.

Would I go round the world? No.

Does it sail well? Yep, Both light air and strong winds. Fast too.

We sail most every weekend, beginning of April to the end of November.

I also owned a 2002 Catalina and 2004 Beneteau. The '12 is much, much better from a design and quality perspective, for the kind of sailing we do. The recession must have made builders up their game.

We love it. Could afford it, too.

Wouldn't turn down a Swan, though.
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  #127  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Okay - so this thread seems to be drifting a bit toward the "Interesting Sailboats" thesis (which is obviously awesome due to the number of views it's had)...

SO, let me try to put a finer point on where we are...

Jon, if I look at your citations, I see a lot of very experienced sailors preferring and extolling the heavier/deeper/longer design paradigm.

BUT (and this is one big-ass but) - the justification for those preferences hinge on sailing in places like the Southern Ocean, Labrador, Antarctica, and the Capes...and/or through very serious storms.

Now you and these guys ACTUALLY DO sail in places like that and in conditions like that. So these perspectives are definitely hard-won and valid.

THAT SAID, what the hell does that have to do with typical cruising? And why would I buy a boat that is specifically suited for Labrador or Cape Horn when I have absolutely no desire to take my boat to those places?

THIS is the issue at the crux of the "blue water" debate.

If "blue water" means, at the outside, the Coconut Run - this entire debate becomes silly. What modern production boat CAN'T handle the Coconut Run? Seriously.
Where you get the idea that the perspectives of people like Harries and Neal apply only to voyaging to places like Labrador, or Cape Horn, is completely beyond me... What they are arguing, is essentially very much in line with the views presented in the book I've recommended over, and over, here...



I think you are seriously underestimating the amount of sailing to weather a "typical cruiser" is likely to encounter on a trip from the East coast to the Eastern Caribbean, for example... A weatherly boat is a desirable attribute for anyone intending to go places, even those well short of the high latitudes... A boat that will heave-to with little fuss is a desirable attribute in an offshore boat, the crews of those abandoned last fall between Newport and Bermuda may have a greater appreciation of that fact, now... And, finally, it is not so much a matter or what a particular BOAT may or may not take, but rather which sort of boats will best take care of their CREW?

That is the ultimate question, IMHO, and the most important argument in favor of the importance of Seakindliness in a boat that's going to be sailed offshore...
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  #128  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

If you can't do that - then there's something else at play in the examples typically offered up such as the Rule 62 tragedy, etc. It ain't the boat.
Maybe this is the difference:
Boat hit hard, No unusual leaks but 30k in damage,
Grid system repair

Maybe the boats survive a bad go but are pretty much totaled after the fact.

Last edited by davidpm; 12-27-2012 at 10:43 PM.
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  #129  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Man, you're slippery! Okay, let's take this one at a time...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Where you get the idea that the perspectives of people like Harries and Neal apply only to voyaging to places like Labrador, or Cape Horn, is completely beyond me... What they are arguing, is essentially very much in line with the views presented in the book I've recommended over, and over, here...

I've not said that your or these guys' perspectives apply ONLY to anything. I said that when arguments are made against modern production boats - the examples (including yours above) tend to be about Labrador, or "slugging it out for days to windward" (John's), or the Southern Ocean, high lats, etc. Back to your point above about the guys that have really DONE BFSing. That's where these types of older/heavier boats really come into their own - in those places, in those conditions. No question.

My point is that if you're not planning on sailing those places (i.e. - "extreme voyaging"), the odds of encountering conditions inherent to those places drop pretty considerably, therefore changing the equation when considering the type of boat one will buy for the conditions one will likely encounter.

I mean, have you seen the pic in PCP's post above? Do you honestly think I have ANY desire to go hang out in that god-forsaken deep-freeze? Ahhhhh - no. No sand, no babes, no booze. And since that's the case, I have no desire to buy and sail an ice-crusher (unless it's for drinks) just because it can do what's in that pic...giving me the comfort of knowing that if I hit any icebergs in the BVIs, I'm golden.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I think you are seriously underestimating the amount of sailing to weather a "typical cruiser" is likely to encounter on a trip from the East coast to the Eastern Caribbean, for example... A weatherly boat is a desirable attribute for anyone intending to go places, even those well short of the high latitudes...
Which production boats cannot sail to weather? I think most all of them can do so pretty well.

Again, for your point to be valid here, the weatherly conditions must be severe enough that the newer production boat is going to seriously pound...and the boat has to be driven hard enough to make that happen.

Again, these extreme examples just don't hold water in this debate - as extreme conditions are pretty rare in typical cruising if one is prudent (at least according to Hal Roth).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
A boat that will heave-to with little fuss is a desirable attribute in an offshore boat, the crews of those abandoned last fall between Newport and Bermuda may have a greater appreciation of that fact, now...
Generally, I totally agree with this statement. As to whether production boats can or cannot heave-to (compared to the old heavies), I don't have enough experience on enough boats to know. I can say that thus far I've hove-to (at the helm) on a Pacific Seacraft 37 Cutter, a Pearson 365 Ketch, a Beneteau 380, a Hunter 30, and a Catalina 27. Every one of them were stable in moderate conditions.

I'm a big fan of heaving to...and fully agree with you that it's a tactic that is invaluable and probably underutilized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
And, finally, it is not so much a matter or what a particular BOAT may or may not take, but rather which sort of boats will best take care of their CREW?

That is the ultimate question, IMHO, and the most important argument in favor of the importance of Seakindliness in a boat that's going to be sailed offshore...
No argument at all from me on this. It is the ultimate question for sure. I'm simply saying that I've not seen enough evidence that production boats are not taking care of their crew. I know of at least one Hunter 49 that did a stellar job of that.
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  #130  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I don't know how you feel about the Najad 38 - but here's what it looks like after a knockdown off Cape Horn:





......
Real knockdowns are rough on any boat apparently.
The English is very poor in what regards the word knock down. It can be a 90º knock down or a 120º knock down and sometimes is also used referring a boat rolled or almost rolled.

Those three circumstances are very different for the "health" of the boat.

On a knock down at 90º a modern boat would have normally no problems. I had been knock down violently on a Bavaria 36 with winds out of the chart and got away with only a ripped sail and a shredded banner. In most cases the boat has not any problem and there is no damage. Most of the knock downs I have heard about are from this type.

On a knock down that almost roll the boat and puts a large part of the mast inside the water the chances are that the mast will not survive. On a roll the mast breaks almost every time.

Having a boat able to recover quickly from a 90º knock down is very important because if the boat is still on its side the next wave will roll it. Many times is that what happens. The boat is knocked at 90º by the first wave and rolled by the second.

In what regards this situation integral center-boarders have an advantage because having no keel they are pushed by the wave and dissipate the wave energy in kinetic movement. Normal sailboats will also be able to dissipate some energy in kinetic movement (other than a rolling one) but the keel has always a tripping effect, more or less according with the immersed area. Heavier boats have more difficulty in being moved laterally by the wave (more inertia), lighter boats can do that more easily.

Regards

Paulo
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