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  #131  
Old 12-27-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
Maybe this is the difference:
Boat hit hard, No unusual leaks but 30k in damage,
Grid system repair

Maybe the boats survive a bad go but are pretty much totaled after the fact.
Now THIS is actually a great point DPM. It would be great to see damage data for production and traditional bluewater boats that have come through similar conditions.

It might well be the case that the lighter built production boats are damaged past the point of repair more quickly/easily than the trads. I could see that as a possibility.

Any studies out there?
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  #132  
Old 12-27-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

And here's an Allied Seawind Ketch after a knockdown (definitely not a production boat):







Big Freakin' Sails

(Killer BFS story BTW)
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-27-2012 at 11:46 PM.
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  #133  
Old 12-27-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

That's BS. The guy just lived that way.
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  #134  
Old 12-28-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg
I think you are seriously underestimating the amount of sailing to weather a "typical cruiser" is likely to encounter on a trip from the East coast to the Eastern Caribbean, for example... A weatherly boat is a desirable attribute for anyone intending to go places, even those well short of the high latitudes...
Which production boats cannot sail to weather? I think most all of them can do so pretty well.

Again, for your point to be valid here, the weatherly conditions must be severe enough that the newer production boat is going to seriously pound...and the boat has to be driven hard enough to make that happen.

Again, these extreme examples just don't hold water in this debate - as extreme conditions are pretty rare in typical cruising if one is prudent (at least according to Hal Roth).
Sorry... Wrong, wrong, and wrong... (grin)

I delivered the Trintella 50 pictured below for years, and have more miles offshore on her, than any other single boat... 4 years ago, we ran her from Annapolis to the BVIs, in December... Incredibly powerful Ron Holland design, raced in the Fastnet, a couple of Bermuda Races, the Pineapple Cup... Chosen by Cruising World as the year's "Best Full Size Cruiser", a total state of the art modern cruising machine, incredibly powered-up (almost an 80' stick on a 50-footer)... A build quality right up there with the best, and if you had to pound to weather for a week, this was the sort of boat you'd want to do it on... (Although, you'd wish the Miele cappucino machine had been gimballed)



That's pretty much what we had, basically ran into tradewind conditions about 800 miles out of Tortola... We were hard on the wind the entire way, barely managed to fetch our destination... It was a BRUTAL trip, the boat on its ear for 6 days. A lesser boat, without tacking, would have wound up in Puerto rico, perhaps even the DR... I can't imagine making that same trip in any number of "ordinary" production boats - especially the one I just delivered down the coast a couple of weeks ago. The level of discomfort would have been extreme, we would have taken a lot of water below, and I would have been fearful of breaking something major, pressing the boat in such conditions even remotely as hard as we were compelled to sail VALOUR...

My point is, those conditions were nothing unusual or extraordinary... We'd seen more wind off Hatteras, but once it came on the nose, it never dropped below 18, nor ever rose above 28-30... Nothing "extreme", at all, the sort of breeze and seas one has to expect any time you venture offshore - only unusual in the direction, and duration... but if you think most of today's production boats would have handled that trip "pretty well", I think you're dreaming... The way the boat I just ran pounded into a Chesapeake chop simply motoring from Annapolis to Solomons in a SW breeze of 18 knots, I can't imagine trying to sail that thing hard on the wind to the islands, without doing serious damage to something, or someone...
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Last edited by JonEisberg; 12-28-2012 at 09:51 AM.
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  #135  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
And here's an Allied Seawind Ketch after a knockdown (definitely not a production boat):
If Allieds were not production boats of their day, I don't know what was... They were about as basic, and identical, as they come... Built like brick shithouses, to be sure - but "production" brick shithouses, nevertheless...

The Kuhners are definitely the real deal, alright... One of the best cruising articles ever written, IMHO, as their comparison (published in BWS years ago) between their circumnavigations on the Seawind, and 2 decades later on their Valiant 40... It really put things in perspective, in many respects their 1st go-around in a much simpler, more basic boat, really was the purer and more memorable experience...
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  #136  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Not sure if mentioned yet, for the Sydney-Hobart race, their are "9" beneteau first 40's racing out of 75 boats plus another 3-5 other sized bene's, making that the most popular brand, making up about 20% of the fleet. The rest of the fleet had maybe 2 or 3 boats of the same brand, no other model was over 2 maybe three also. Something to be said for this model(s) of a higher volume production boat builder!

In the past, there has been a 1D fleet of Sydney 38's, only saw maybe 2 racing this year. I did not see that the 1st 40's had there own division, but with that many, there should be. I also did not paruse the fleets real close either.

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  #137  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

I have said it before and will say it again, "No production boat manufacturer builds their boats to fail". If you race your boat and want to be competitive, then it needs to be modified to allow for the extreme conditions you would expect to encounter in the ocean. The cruiser not having to follow the fleet has the luxury to sit tight and enjoy another few days of partying and exploring their anchorage, waiting while the nasty weather passes. With today's weather routing and long range forecasts there is no reason to punch into rough weather, albeit we do tend to use the motor more than I would like, but the wife is happy and I do get good meals at set times with a drink at sun down. Occasionally you will get hit by a squall, but these are short lived and as long as you are ready can be exhilarating. Traveling to windward is only fun when the seas are small and the wind less than 15 knots and for a short duration of time, going to windward for days on end is just a pain and a sure fire way to piss off the cook/crew/significant other, that is unless a necessity of an ocean race. Buy the boat you like and can afford take precautions and plan ahead and you can go sooner and in comfort.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonV View Post
I have said it before and will say it again, "No production boat manufacturer builds their boats to fail". If you race your boat and want to be competitive, then it needs to be modified to allow for the extreme conditions you would expect to encounter in the ocean. The cruiser not having to follow the fleet has the luxury to sit tight and enjoy another few days of partying and exploring their anchorage, waiting while the nasty weather passes. With today's weather routing and long range forecasts there is no reason to punch into rough weather, albeit we do tend to use the motor more than I would like, but the wife is happy and I do get good meals at set times with a drink at sun down. Occasionally you will get hit by a squall, but these are short lived and as long as you are ready can be exhilarating. Traveling to windward is only fun when the seas are small and the wind less than 15 knots and for a short duration of time, going to windward for days on end is just a pain and a sure fire way to piss off the cook/crew/significant other, that is unless a necessity of an ocean race. Buy the boat you like and can afford take precautions and plan ahead and you can go sooner and in comfort.
Well said
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  #139  
Old 12-28-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Capta so you dont know at all if it was a container. You dont even know the size of the waves but you know the unseen loud bang was a container? That wont stand up in court.
We fell off a wave once in another boat and when we hit the bottom there was a tremendous crash, absolutly tremendous smashing sound that had us in the bilges looking for leaks. When we haulded the boat later we saw the indentation in the antifouling of a turtle shell. And not a big turtle at that.
Your absolutely right, I do not know for a fact that it was a container we hit.
But to go from rolling to port to having the stb rail in the water virtually instantly, and moving sideways to stb away from whatever we hit with water nearly entering the cockpit from leeward, I don't know what else it could have been. I've fallen off waves in a very strong norther in the stream and other places with a lot of noise, hit a few pretty big logs in the PNW and numerous other things at sea and have never had a boat thrown so quickly and violently on her side.
I had absolutely no idea at the time, and like you, I thought it was a large wave hitting the rubrail, but when we got in the dink and saw the lost paint square, it seemed a logical conclusion. Others sailors saw the lost paint and agreed that it was distinctly possible that we had hit a container.
I really don't need to make up stories, what exactly would I stand to gain from it? I do not seek attention or approval from anyone; OK, maybe a little from my girlfriend. We were full of fuel, water and stores, never mind the masses of spares we all carry when departing on an extended cruise to the Caribbean, on a very heavy, fairly large boat. It certainly wasn't a turtle, nor a whale; but I am open to any other realistic suggestions.
And just to clarify another point; I am in no way, nor have I ever intended to say that all production boats are poorly built or of low quality. There are numerous high quality production boats on the market, new and old that IMO would be wonderful, safe and comfortable cruisers.
Curiously, these discussions seem to be about the "seaworthiness" of various boats, with little mention of comfort, at sea or at anchor. IMO, "livability" or comfort is a very important feature in a cruising boat, as we all spend much more time at anchor than underway.
If a boat hobbyhorses violently underway, or rolls horribly at anchor in a small swell, wouldn't that be something anyone, as a prospective buyer, would like to know? In Hawaii, a friend who did not know how to sail, bought an Ingrid, a boat I thought was the bee's knees in cruisers. I was so excited when he asked me to go out with him a few times to show him a bit about sailing it. It was shocking at how much that boat hobbyhorsed in small chop. I have seen what appeared to be excellently designed cruising boats become almost unlivable in a small swell at anchor, this summer in Prickly Bay, Grenada. One in particular (I do not know the design or manufacturer), a 48' to 52' ketch, (a boat I would have bought, had I found her for sale when I purchased our present boat, in a heartbeat!) that almost rolled her rails under when most other boats were doing OK. The owner set up a bridle on the anchor to bring the bow into the swells, but then the boat began to pitch violently. We watched in awe, literally. This was a beautiful, heavy displacement cruiser I would guess was built between 1970 and 1986. Boy was I happy I hadn't bought that boat!
I've no idea what it would be like living on and cruising a boat like the Hanse 415, for instance. Does the deep fin keel inhibit or enhance rolling? I am not denigrating the boat, only asking.
I got lucky; I purchased this boat because the Pearsons I have sailed, none of which was a 530 by the way, seemed well built and had a good over all reputation. It had most of the features I wanted in the last boat I'd ever own and the price was right. With the centerboard it is usually quite comfortable at anchor and sails much better than I thought it would. I honestly thought it was a motorsailor when I bought her; how wrong I was! But again, I got very very lucky.
Since we can't agree on seaworthiness of various boats, perhaps we can put forth some constructive information on the "livability" of boats that forum members are considering purchasing?
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  #140  
Old 12-28-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonV View Post
I have said it before and will say it again, "No production boat manufacturer builds their boats to fail". If you race your boat and want to be competitive, then it needs to be modified to allow for the extreme conditions you would expect to encounter in the ocean. The cruiser not having to follow the fleet has the luxury to sit tight and enjoy another few days of partying and exploring their anchorage, waiting while the nasty weather passes. With today's weather routing and long range forecasts there is no reason to punch into rough weather, albeit we do tend to use the motor more than I would like, but the wife is happy and I do get good meals at set times with a drink at sun down. Occasionally you will get hit by a squall, but these are short lived and as long as you are ready can be exhilarating. Traveling to windward is only fun when the seas are small and the wind less than 15 knots and for a short duration of time, going to windward for days on end is just a pain and a sure fire way to piss off the cook/crew/significant other, that is unless a necessity of an ocean race. Buy the boat you like and can afford take precautions and plan ahead and you can go sooner and in comfort.
^^^^^^THIS!!!!!!

(From a guy who knows.)
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