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  #141  
Old 12-28-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Sorry... Wrong, wrong, and wrong... (grin)

I delivered the Trintella 50 pictured below for years, and have more miles offshore on her, than any other single boat... 4 years ago, we ran her from Annapolis to the BVIs, in December... Incredibly powerful Ron Holland design, raced in the Fastnet, a couple of Bermuda Races, the Pineapple Cup... Chosen by Cruising World as the year's "Best Full Size Cruiser", a total state of the art modern cruising machine, incredibly powered-up (almost an 80' stick on a 50-footer)... A build quality right up there with the best, and if you had to pound to weather for a week, this was the sort of boat you'd want to do it on... (Although, you'd wish the Miele cappucino machine had been gimballed)



That's pretty much what we had, basically ran into tradewind conditions about 800 miles out of Tortola... We were hard on the wind the entire way, barely managed to fetch our destination... It was a BRUTAL trip, the boat on its ear for 6 days. A lesser boat, without tacking, would have wound up in Puerto rico, perhaps even the DR... I can't imagine making that same trip in any number of "ordinary" production boats - especially the one I just delivered down the coast a couple of weeks ago. The level of discomfort would have been extreme, we would have taken a lot of water below, and I would have been fearful of breaking something major, pressing the boat in such conditions even remotely as hard as we were compelled to sail VALOUR...

My point is, those conditions were nothing unusual or extraordinary... We'd seen more wind off Hatteras, but once it came on the nose, it never dropped below 18, nor ever rose above 28-30... Nothing "extreme", at all, the sort of breeze and seas one has to expect any time you venture offshore - only unusual in the direction, and duration... but if you think most of today's production boats would have handled that trip "pretty well", I think you're dreaming... The way the boat I just ran pounded into a Chesapeake chop simply motoring from Annapolis to Solomons in a SW breeze of 18 knots, I can't imagine trying to sail that thing hard on the wind to the islands, without doing serious damage to something, or someone...
I am a bit confused, the Trintella 50 is a modern beamy boat. It has more beam than for instance a First 50. The under-body is a modern one even if its keel design is not very modern in what relates to maximizing RM regarding ballast weight, even considering this type of boat.

Trintella 50:



Maybe that has contributed to Trintella bankruptcy for lack of demand on their boats while its main competitor on the Dutch market has survived.

Contest offered the same luxury and build quality in more modern hulls (look at the keel) and provided a better performance:



Perhaps the most successeful boat on that segment luxury market is the Xc50:



Also with a more modern keel.

Anyway if you had picked a First 50 and sailed upwind at the same speed and wind angle you would not find it a lot different. Off course, the First 50 can go a lo faster upwind, a lot closer to the wind and then you would find a big difference in comfort, but that has to do with the superior speed and being at a worst angle with the waves (closer to the wind), not with the hull design.

yes, probably the marginally bigger rocker and superior weigh of the Tintella would not compensate the positive effect of the much more narrow entries on the First but the difference would not probably be big. An on a limit situation the capacity of the First to make way upwind would be bigger than the one on theTrintella.



I agree with you that the ability to sail upwind is not the same in all modern yachts as it is not the same the ability regarding sailing downwind fast on autopilot. Many times these two requisites are contradictory in what regards hull design. Some boats have a balanced hull regarding the two priorities, very few privilege upwind sailing and many privilege downwind sailing just because cruisers sail more time downwind.

That doesn't mean that some boats that privilege downwind sailing have not a very good upwind ability, at the cost of more pounding.

There are not miracles regarding a boat with a good ability to sail upwind. For that is convenient to have a considerable draft and power (stiffness).

Sailing with waves, If you have a narrower hull you need less power because the wave drag is a lot less. if you have a beamier hull you need more power because wave drag is bigger. That is not a problem since beam gives form stability and stiffness but will result in a harder ride.

But I agree with you that there are some modern mass production cruisers that have not the extra power to compensate the increased wave drag effect on a beamier hull. The Trintella 50 is not one of them, the First 50 even less neither the Hanse 415 or the Jeanneau 409 but I have my doubts about others and some certitudes about some





Of course, those boats that will have problem to go upwind against waves and considerable weather will not have any problem in sailing pretty well upwind in more moderate conditions and even so consider that I am talking in sailing close upwind. Any of the modern mass production designs (generally speaking), if with the right size, would have any problem to escape a lee shore sailing at 60º of the wind. That means slowly progress against the wind even if at a considerable speed over the water, but no danger to the boat.

Many times people confuse quality of interiors with seaworthiness and a lot would say that for the same size a Halberg Rassy would be much more seaworthy than a Hanse. Some would even say that a HR is a bluewater boat ans the Hanse a coastal one.

Take a look at this stability curves comparison between a Hanse 345 and the HR 342:



We can see that the Hanse is a more stiff boat with a bigger max RM, a boat that would require more energy to be capsized. Regarding final stability we can see that the Hanse has a superior stability till 95º of heel and a much superior one between 60 and 75º. The Halberg Rassy has a marginal better stability from 95º till the AVS point that is also marginally better for the HR (120 to 122º). we can also see that the Hanse pays its superior positive stability with an also superior inverted stability.

It makes any sense to say that a HR is a bluewater boat and the Hanse not?

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-28-2012 at 01:32 PM.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Sorry... Wrong, wrong, and wrong... (grin)
Cool - I think we're finally making progress...slugging it out to windward as it were! Heh-heh.

We're now backing off the extremes (Labrador, the Capes, Antarctica, etc.) and talking about more typical conditions. That's good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I delivered the Trintella 50 pictured below for years, and have more miles offshore on her, than any other single boat... 4 years ago, we ran her from Annapolis to the BVIs, in December... Incredibly powerful Ron Holland design, raced in the Fastnet, a couple of Bermuda Races, the Pineapple Cup... Chosen by Cruising World as the year's "Best Full Size Cruiser", a total state of the art modern cruising machine, incredibly powered-up (almost an 80' stick on a 50-footer)... A build quality right up there with the best, and if you had to pound to weather for a week, this was the sort of boat you'd want to do it on... (Although, you'd wish the Miele cappucino machine had been gimballed)
What typical cruiser has to pound to weather for a week (see Simon's post above)? And how often does that happen for said cruiser during his/her sailing life?

Again, you're a delivery skipper - which definitely informs your perspective. But you have to admit, it's a completely different calculus from the typical cruiser.

However, you're right....sweet boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
That's pretty much what we had, basically ran into tradewind conditions about 800 miles out of Tortola... We were hard on the wind the entire way, barely managed to fetch our destination... It was a BRUTAL trip, the boat on its ear for 6 days. A lesser boat, without tacking, would have wound up in Puerto rico, perhaps even the DR... I can't imagine making that same trip in any number of "ordinary" production boats - especially the one I just delivered down the coast a couple of weeks ago. The level of discomfort would have been extreme, we would have taken a lot of water below, and I would have been fearful of breaking something major, pressing the boat in such conditions even remotely as hard as we were compelled to sail VALOUR...
This was a delivery, correct? You had a schedule. I've read countless times that one of the most dangerous things a typical cruiser can do is "have a schedule". Why be compelled to sail the boat so hard? Isn't that a fundamental problem in itself? Shouldn't one simply ease up on the boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
My point is, those conditions were nothing unusual or extraordinary... We'd seen more wind off Hatteras, but once it came on the nose, it never dropped below 18, nor ever rose above 28-30... Nothing "extreme", at all, the sort of breeze and seas one has to expect any time you venture offshore - only unusual in the direction, and duration... but if you think most of today's production boats would have handled that trip "pretty well", I think you're dreaming...

The way the boat I just ran pounded into a Chesapeake chop simply motoring from Annapolis to Solomons in a SW breeze of 18 knots, I can't imagine trying to sail that thing hard on the wind to the islands, without doing serious damage to something, or someone...
Now this is where it gets a little whacky. Are you honestly trying to tell me that production boats just can't sail from Tortola to Annapolis without falling apart if the winds are northerly at 18-30 knots? And that those Hunters, Beneteaus, Catalinas, etc. that try it come apart and sink? And that only you in a Trintella 50 could make it (barely) in such conditions - there were no other lesser boats out there?

Really? This is what you want me to believe? Jon - please.

I understand perfectly that you feel much more comfortable pushing a boat hard for a delivery in such conditions if it's a boat like VALOUR. And I understand that this is how you judge boats - based on the way you sail them...most always pushing them for delivery. Nothing wrong with that at all.

But to imply that production boats couldn't make that trip without coming apart and hurting someone is really beyond the pale. They do it all the time! Or am I wrong and there are never any production boats from the islands along the East Coast until the winds turn south and drop to 10 knots?

Look, you are obviously UBER experienced. I want to be clear that I have huge respect for your accomplishments and advice. I do. I promise.

But, especially in this debate, applying a delivery skipper's sailing methodology to the way a typical cruiser is going to use the boat he/she buys is definitely extreme. Very, very few cruisers sail like delivery skippers (or racers or voyagers) - hence, very few face the conditions delivery skippers (or racers or voyagers) will face. They wait it out...they go easier. That's good!

Now, to be clear, the conditions and sailing methodology (pressing hard) you DO face as a delivery skipper CAN and DO occasionally happen to typical cruisers - sometimes with bad results. So, there's definitely merit to your arguments. No doubt. But it goes back to what has been said ad infinitum. What percentage of your sailing life do you want to buy for as a cruiser? The 99%, or the 1%. And, more importantly, if the former, how can you prepare yourself and your boat to better handle that 1% if and when it comes?

Different people will make different calls on that obviously. But at least give production boats their due based on what they're built for - and what they'll typically face. There's NOTHING inherently wrong with them!

I have no doubt that you would NOT have wanted - by any stretch of the imagination - to have been on SEQUITUR in that F10/11 off Cape Horn. I have no doubt that, according to your post above, you would have been certain it would have been severely damaged...if not sunk - in such conditions. It would have been to you a production boat WAY out of its league in the Southern Ocean.

But...it did just fine...even with a full cockpit enclosure.

Face it, there is absolutely no doubt that there are FAR more SEQUITURS than VALOURS plying the treacherous waters off the east coast - all year long - completing the trip without too much death and mayhem. So let's keep it real here.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-28-2012 at 01:47 PM.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
What percentage of your sailing life do you want to buy for as a cruiser? The 99%, or the 1%. And, more importantly, if the former, how can you prepare yourself and your boat to better handle that 1% if and when it comes?
I would do what lots of people apparently do. That is, take the money I saved on a production boat and use it to hire Jon to bash to windward for 6 days, while I wait on a sunny for his arrival
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

We're now backing off the extremes (Labrador, the Capes, Antarctica, etc.) and talking about more typical conditions. That's good.
Look, in my first post in this thread, I expressed my agreement that a boat like a Catalina 42 would suit the OP admirably...

I am not the one who has introduced the "extremes" into this discussion... I have simply been responding to the overly broad generalizations that Today's production boats are far more better in design, manufacture and tighter spec than the old stick built boat in the 80's...or If anyone thinks the old blue water boat is much safer in crossing the pond is dreaming... And, of course, your own assertion that virtually any production boat will take you virtually anywhere you want to go..., and that the fact that a Hunter rounded Cape Horn is sufficient to settle the matter definitively... My mention of a destination like Labrador was solely an offhanded reference to Paulo's comment that he would be comfortable taking a Hanse 415 anywhere, and I simply pointed out that I would not care to take any boat with such a keel to such a remote region, one so poorly charted, where a hard grounding on rock is a distinct possibility... I am certainly not arguing that the "typical cruiser" needs a boat suited to sail to such places...

The two anecdotal examples I've offered - my trip back up from the Rio Dulce, and a trip to the BVIs - are certainly well within the realm of passages today's typical cruisers might make in a "production boat"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
What typical cruiser has to pound to weather for a week (see Simon's post above)? And how often does that happen for said cruiser during his/her sailing life?
Apples to oranges, coastal cruising to an offshore passage... I've already explained why a cruiser would have been compelled, given the long range forecast, to beat it out of Guatemala just like I did, earlier this summer...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
This was a delivery, correct? You had a schedule. I've read countless times that one of the most dangerous things a typical cruiser can do is "have a schedule". Why be compelled to sail the boat so hard? Isn't that a fundamental problem in itself? Shouldn't one simply ease up on the boat?
Again, on a passage, one doesn't always have that option. One is often compelled to keep moving, in an effort to avoid even worse weather. The loss of the IP 38 TRIPLE STARS and one of her crew in November '11, for example, might have been avoided if they had kept moving as I believe Herb had advised, rather than allowing themselves to be overtaken by heavier weather, or being saddled with a boat that might have had difficulty making decent progress into contrary weather...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
But, especially in this debate, applying a delivery skipper's sailing methodology to the way a typical cruiser is going to use the boat he/she buys is definitely extreme. Very, very few cruisers sail like delivery skippers (or racers or voyagers) - hence, very few face the conditions delivery skippers (or racers or voyagers) will face. They wait it out...they go easier. That's good!
Oh, really?

I don't intentionally "punish" the boats I deliver, simply because I might be sailing to a schedule... Quite the opposite, actually, I'm not interested in breaking stuff on someone else's million dollar boat. That's not very good for business, after all...

For example, in the fall of 2011, I left Hampton at the same time as the Caribbean 1500 rally, on a Valiant 42 going to Antigua... When the forecast began to show the possibility of the development of another tropical low further down the rhumbline, we took the decision to divert to Bermuda... I only recall 2, maybe 3 of the Rally fleet that elected to do the same... So, it was my delivery crew who relaxed in St. Georges for 4 days, while many of the "cruisers" in the rally endured a pretty good butt-kicking, sailing close-hauled in 25-30 knots for the better part of 3 days... Go figure...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Now this is where it gets a little whacky. Are you honestly trying to tell me that production boats just can't sail from Tortola to Annapolis without falling apart if the winds are northerly at 18-30 knots? And that those Hunters, Beneteaus, Catalinas, etc. that try it come apart and sink? And that only you in a Trintella 50 could make it (barely) in such conditions - there were no other lesser boats out there?

Really? This is what you want me to believe? Jon - please.
No, that is NOT what I'm trying to tell you...

Most any boat can handle that trip with a breeze out of the North... However, the tradewind conditions I described were out of the East, that's a whole different ballgame... And, yes, I think there are plenty of Bene-Hunta-Linas that would have been seriously "challenged" by such conditions...

Of course they're not likely to "break apart and sink", I'm not suggesting any such thing... I'm talking about the sort of lesser, niggling problems that so ofter arise when such boats encounter difficult conditions...

Topside leaks, for example... I realize you don't want to hear this, but in my experience, a Hunter is far more likely to be plagued with the unwanted intrusion of water below, than a Trintella... Few things are guaranteed to make a trip miserable, become a distraction and major PITA, and degrade the morale of the crew, than battling deck leaks, or the collection of water in a shallow bilge without a deep sump... Just one example of the sort of shortcomings I'm referring to, that are likely to be more common on many typical production boats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
But to imply that production boats couldn't make that trip without coming apart and hurting someone is really beyond the pale. They do it all the time! Or am I wrong and there are never any production boats from the islands along the East Coast until the winds turn south and drop to 10 knots?
Again, I am NOT implying that...

On the other hand, look at the list of boats abandoned off the East Coast in recent memory, those high-profile rescues by cruise ships, etc... All that I can recall off the top of my head, just happened to be one of your vaunted production boats... Same with an event like the ARC, the two recent abandonments that immediately come to mind (there may be others, of course) were a J-Boat, and a Hunter... Go figure...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Now, to be clear, the conditions and sailing methodology (pressing hard) you DO face as a delivery skipper CAN and DO occasionally happen to typical cruisers - sometimes with bad results. So, there's definitely merit to your arguments. No doubt. But it goes back to what has been said ad infinitum. What percentage of your sailing life do you want to buy for as a cruiser? The 99%, or the 1%. And, more importantly, if the former, how can you prepare yourself and your boat to better handle that 1% if and when it comes?
You've also posed the question, "What production boat CAN'T handle the Coconut Run?" Sorry, but think you're naive about the sort of conditions one might be likely to encounter on a typical "Milk/Coconut Run" circuit...

For one departing from the East coast, such a trip usually involves heading to the Eastern Caribbean, first... the appropriate timing for that ride is very narrow, one has little latitude for waiting it out, for an ideal window... Usually, a few weeks in November is about it, the weather generally starts going downhill pretty quickly after that.. It's very likely you're gonna get pasted with at least some near-gale conditions during that trip, and quite possibly in the vicinity of the Gulf Stream...

Same thing with the passage from Tonga to NZ that many doing the Milk Run typically make... There's a very good possibility of hitting big weather there, or having to slog thru hard weather in order to avoid a worse system on the way...

The Red Sea, when people were doing it, is usually about 1,000 miles of very hard sailing to windward, good luck with the strategy of waiting around until conditions improve... And, by all accounts, the Indian Ocean can be a VERY boisterous passage, one during which seakindliness in your boat will likely be greatly appreciated, over speed, or "performance"...

Of course, many "ordinary" modern production boats are capable of such a voyage, no question... Whether they are the best overall choice, however, when compared to more "moderate" designs, is certainly debatable, IMHO...
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

I haven't seen a new Trintella for years but I well remember a new 44 that was shown here years ago. Comparing it in any way to a mass or mid market builder is patently absurd. It was Nautor quality and price. IIRC it was double the price of a very similar, quality built local boat (Spencer 1330).
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
.. Paulo's comment that he would be comfortable taking a Hanse 415 anywhere, ...
I did not said properly that. I have said anywhere in the right season.

If someone wants to sail on the North Atlantic on the stormy season or at 50º of latitude, or in the Arctic or the Antarctic, that's not the indicated boat. I am simply not interested in doing that and I guess that 95% of the cruisers, even the ones that circumnavigate are not interested either.

Let me point out that I understand why the Hanse 415 is designed that way but I sail too much upwind on the unstable med winds to see that boat as desirable for me. The Hanse 415 is the type of boat that can sail upwind because has the power to do that, but at the cost of a more uncomfortable ride.

Regarding mass production mainstream cruisers personally I would favor much more a boat like the jeanneau 409, that is a more balanced boat and will sail more comfortably upwind. However I can understand that the ones that sail mostly downwind would prefer the Hanse 415. The boat sails with less heel and is more stable sailing downwind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Of course, many "ordinary" modern production boats are capable of such a voyage, no question... Whether they are the best overall choice, however, when compared to more "moderate" designs, is certainly debatable, IMHO...
More moderate designs? Is the Trintella 50 a moderate design? I don't know what is a moderate design. Boats are designed to perform better in a given set of conditions and those conditions have some variability according with the designs. I cannot see anything of "immoderate" on modern mass produced boats. The evolution of mainstreaming cruising boats on the last 10 years has as a common dominator designing boats that are more stable, that heel less, that are more easy to sail by a couple and that have a better and easy performance sailing downwind.

That's the qualities that most sailors want on a cruiser.

The source of inspiration for those boats was obviously not boats that need a full crew to be raced but solo racers that have to be easy boats and boats that can be steered by autopilot even in harsh conditions, boats with a big directional stability.

Why are this kind of boats immoderate? Seems to me very moderate even if personally like less moderate sailboats, lighter and faster ones, more narrow and more tricky to sail, better upwind, no doubt.

Regarding keels, that is a completely different matter. Modern techniques and materials permitted to design safe keels with almost all ballast at the bulb. Those keels were first developed on racers and when they become reliable started to be used on cruisers.

The advantages are obvious in what regards using a lot less ballast for the same RM and therefore being able to design lighter sailboats with a better performance and the same stability.

I agree with you that a boat that is meant to sail in uncharted or badly charted waters would not have ideally that kind of keel but one that can swing when an obstacle is hit, like the ones on the Southerly, Boreal, Allures, OVNI, Pogo, Opium or many other boats.

A boat with a variable draft is also very convenient and a Aluminum hull is the more adequate, but most sailors are not interested and will never sail on uncharted waters so for the majority, even for the ones that circumnavigate, a high performance keel is the more adequate solution because it is the one that allows the better performance with the less costs. That's why they are today the norm on modern designed overall cruisers. Nothing of immoderate about that.

Of course even among mainstream mass production cruisers you have clearly two types: The ones that favor sail functionality and the ones that favors interior space at the cost of sailing functionality even if most of them are still capable cruisers. I prefer the first but can understand that the ones that don't sail much and live extensively on the boat would prefer the bigger interior space.

The reality is that most cruisers live much more time on the boat compared with sailing time. If you check the engine hours on most boats with 5 years you will find out that they average about 500 hours. Many boats are used for sailing also but most of the time as a second house. For those a bigger interior space makes all the sense even at the cost at the loss of some sailing convenience and functionality.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-28-2012 at 10:15 PM.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
I haven't seen a new Trintella for years but I well remember a new 44 that was shown here years ago. Comparing it in any way to a mass or mid market builder is patently absurd. It was Nautor quality and price. IIRC it was double the price of a very similar, quality built local boat (Spencer 1330).
And you will not see them again since they went bankrupt some years ago.

However you should not compare luxury and finish quality with seaworthiness or ability to sail upwind. See that stability comparison that I have posted some posts back between a HR and a Hanse.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
..............
However you should not compare luxury and finish quality with seaworthiness or ability to sail upwind. See that stability comparison that I have posted some posts back between a HR and a Hanse.

Regards

Paulo
Funny you should quote this in a way, lets look at the Morris MY50?!?!?!? large boat, but only has a european rating of B, not A which is open ocean. A VERY pricey, well built, designed boat no less......BUT, its design is NOT to go on an open ocean, around the horns etc. Well maybe a nice day sail in 10-20 knot winds and 3-4' seas max......Its basic design in not like a First 40, many other higher production built boats. In fact, NONE of the MY series boats are ment to cross oceans, Not sure the Alerion's are either, very similar in look and design. Altho build quality will be different, being as one can get into an Alerion for 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of a Morris equal. Morris DOES build boats that were designed to cross, and have crossed, gone around cape horn all the way to Antarctica and back.

It all boils down to the design, scantlings etc of the given boat. Is it able to or not. Most boats will out last the people part.

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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
BUT, its design is NOT to go on an open ocean, around the horns etc. Well maybe a nice day sail in 10-20 knot winds and 3-4' seas max..

Marty

As a sailing newbie I am trying my best to learn from this thread. A few things have me scratching my head and I'm hoping you guys with tons more sailing experience can help.

I am confused by the quote above. Is this meant to be an obvious exaggeration to make a point? The reason I ask is that I sail my Morgan 22 in 10-20 knots and 3-4' seas all the time. Those are quite enjoyable conditions even on my tiny little boat.

I would expect a 40' boat of any make whatsoever to handle those conditions as if it were small lake sailing.

If you were being facetious, as I suspect, then please ignore my silly misundertanding.

I'm looking at larger boats as we speak, primarily because my little boat is cramped with 2 adults on it. I'm thinking that practically any boat that floats will be sufficient for cruising the Florida gulf coast between Tampa and the Dry Tortugas. (One more reason for a larger boat... tankage. My tankage is currently measured in the amount of coolers I bring on board.)

Last edited by ShoalFinder; 12-28-2012 at 11:37 PM.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Go look up an MY50, look at the design brief, and you will see it is not designed to cross oceans etc. Maybe yes, the winds I mentioned are on the lower side of what that boat will handle. BUT, if you look at the design etc, it does not come with, nor designed with safety lines around the boat. My 28' boat has better offshore design options than that one. Some others include the entry to the cabin is higher than the cockpit seats, so if the cockpit floods, the cabin does not. The MY and some others, the entry door is at the cockpit floor level. This is a design issue that could sink a boat in the ocean in BIG waves.

Look up the European design ratings that came about after the 79 fastnet race. This will help you understand why and how some boats should handle certain conditions vs others that will not. B rating as the morris MY designs, and possibly your Morgan, altho suspect your morgan is a C, can handle up to IIRC 6 m seas, no place for a life raft, where as an A rated needs a life raft, and can handle 10m seas. Righting moment is higher for an A vs B vs C. C is inland protected, B is sorta protected, A is open water.
The number after is the number of occupants. Some boats will have an A6B8C10, meaning for open ocean, 6 max, semi protected, 8 max, protected, 10 max occupants on board.

I'm sure I have not explained the above correctly, but it gives you and idea. I think I have a link, will see if I can find the definitions for you to read. If I can not find them, I a sure Paulo knows where they can be found at.

Marty
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