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  #151  
Old 12-28-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

EUR-Lex - 31994L0025 - EN

Found them, wave heights are wrong, only 4M, over for an A, up to for a B,
A is ocean, B is off shore, what I might call a coastal cruiser. C inshore, D protected.

It should take you a moment or two to read all of it, but has some interesting info etc, along with things to confuse one too!
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  #152  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
EUR-Lex - 31994L0025 - EN

Found them, wave heights are wrong, only 4M, over for an A, up to for a B,
A is ocean, B is off shore, what I might call a coastal cruiser. C inshore, D protected.

It should take you a moment or two to read all of it, but has some interesting info etc, along with things to confuse one too!
A. OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above, and vessels largely self-sufficient.

B. OFFSHORE: Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.

C. INSHORE: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2 m may be experienced.

D. SHELTERED WATERS: Designed for voyages on small lakes, rivers, and canals where conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0,5 m may be experienced.
Boats in each Category must be designed and constructed to withstand these parameters in respect of stability, buoyancy, and other relevant essential requirements listed in Annex I, and to have good handling characteristics.

Regards

Paulo
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  #153  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoalFinder View Post
I sail my Morgan 22 in 10-20 knots and 3-4' seas all the time.
These ratings come from the European Union but I don't think there is an equivalent for the USA

It's shown on a compliance plate at the Nav station.
Mine is a French built Beneteau 393 so it has a European CE rating shown as

A 8
B 10
C 12
D 12

The numbers are the number of people on board as a maximum
The letters mean a type of sailing condition

A’ OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.
‘B’ OFFSHORE: Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.
‘C’ INSHORE: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2 m may be experienced.
‘D’ SHELTERED WATERS: Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and canals when conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0.3 m may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0.5 m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.

So if a vessels CE rating is
A 0
B 0
C 6
D 6
You could expect it to be a small light boat that's fine in 25 knots up to 6 foot waves. But death on wheels in 50 knots and 20 foot waves.

Of course people in theses threads only agree with these ratings if they help their argument, otherwise they dismiss them and say bribery has taken place

But no one has sued for wrongful death.
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  #154  
Old 12-28-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Of course, many "ordinary" modern production boats are capable of such a voyage, no question... Whether they are the best overall choice, however, when compared to more "moderate" designs, is certainly debatable, IMHO...
Cool. That's good enough for me.
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  #155  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoalFinder View Post
I'm thinking that practically any boat that floats will be sufficient for cruising the Florida gulf coast between Tampa and the Dry Tortugas.
Yes, I think you are right.
That gives you great scope to find a boat that's going to be good and comfortable below, a bit more luxurious that the current boat, and that you can have fun sailing.

Another way to look at it would be the distance in time to a safe port. So if you are sailing along, sailing, sailing and the VHF goes off with a weather warning for 12 hours time can you get somewhere safe within that time?
I don't know your area but there's plenty of safe places, aren't there?
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  #156  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
...
Mine is a French built Beneteau 393 so it has a European CE rating shown as

A 8
B 10
C 12
D 12

The numbers are the number of people on board as a maximum
The letters mean a type of sailing condition

....
Just to make it clear, it means your boat is a class A boat but only if you carry a max of 8. You can carry 10 but then it will be considered a Class B. The max you can carry are 12 people and on that circumstance your boat is only considered a class C.

Normally in Europe it is not only enough to have a Class A boat to be allowed to register the boat as class A. For that you have to have the boat equipped with the required security items that are less in a class B or C.

Most boats are Class A but have a register has class B for having less safety equipment.

Finally for sailing on a class A boat far away for the shore you need a unlimited captain's licence. On a class B you can sail with two different licences, one that demands you to sail near the shore the other allows you to sail till 200nm offshore.

To complicate things there are some differences among licences in different countries and in UK they don't require none. I don't know how they do because when you charter a boat in any other country, including Croatia they ask for your licence.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
These ratings come from the European Union but I don't think there is an equivalent for the USA


Of course people in theses threads only agree with these ratings if they help their argument, otherwise they dismiss them and say bribery has taken place
Heck they wonrt even believe and expert like Jon and hes a delivery captain and has been on many of these boats and different types. Who better than to compare,

He gets challenged by graphs..pictures and theoreticals or that he pushes boats too hard. Imagine we have an expert..who is too expert

IMHO who knows better than someone who does it, whos sailed it,

You can make anyboat into anything you want it to be. Thor Hyerdol sailed a log ( or did he row it) throughout the seas. Everyone has their own qualifications for what they find important in a boat. Everyone who truly uses a boat, sooner or later, wheather in the ocean, large bay will run into adverse weather and sea state, no matter how carefull you plan your weather window. Im sure many of these boats are safe enough for that. Bbut they all are no equally as safe at all.

Anyone who has done any blue water sailing for an extended period of time knows its not all about sailing charter boats downwind between line of sight islands in the Carribean for just 5 hours.

One difference Ive noticed between poeple who buy production boats and the " other kind" is that many who own the "other kind" own them for years and years, especially when they have gotten up into the 35+ foot range. The production boats all have a number of smaller sized boats as a rule also, where the non production boats concentrate on the larger sizes.

There will be no end to this argument

Buy a boat that suits your needs and that you love. Sail it. Get on many before you buy and dont be predisposed to like on or the other just on the production boat moniker alone.

Dave
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  #158  
Old 12-29-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

Most boats are Class A but have a register has class B for having less safety equipment.

Regards

Paulo
It's a builders code so equipment put on afterwards wouldn't matter, nor the ticket of the operator. It's straight building compliance.
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  #159  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
....

He gets challenged by graphs..pictures and theoreticals or that he pushes boats too hard. Imagine we have an expert..who is too expert

IMHO who knows better than someone who does it, whos sailed it,
....Dave
Well. Others that have done the same thing and have a different opinion. Some have done the same thing and are also NA and now design boats, others have circumnavigated many times.

Fact is that like Jon says, there are boats that are better then others offshore and even if all agree in what regards the ones that are really bad, regarding the ones that are good the preferences varies with different sailors and different NA.

Regarding those graphs, well they show that one that you would not consider a mass production boat and other that is a production boat (an Halberg Rassy and an Hanse) have a similar stability curve. That is not a challenge to nobody, that is a fact and only true for those two boats. That only means that sometimes things are not what they seem to be and somethings taken for granted are not true.

Each boat is different and it is not necessarily to be an expensive boat with a great interior and luxury finish that it is necessarily more seaworthy then another less expensive even if it is that the case many times.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
The way the boat I just ran pounded into a Chesapeake chop simply motoring from Annapolis to Solomons in a SW breeze of 18 knots, I can't imagine trying to sail that thing hard on the wind to the islands, without doing serious damage to something, or someone...
This thread is a long way from the OP's question. So let me nudge it in another direction.

I'd like to ask those sailors like Jon who have experience on a lot of different boats to comment on what boats have had a comfortable motion, what boats have been a misery and what design elements each had in common.

Forget charts & graphs, production or custom, European or American. I'm talking about personal experience. It's also important where that experience occured. For example a boat that experienced problems half way to Bermuda might still make a solid coastal cruiser - just not as a blue water boat.

My question is not about speed or performance but about reasonable comfort for the crew.
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