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  #161  
Old 12-29-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Yes, I think you are right.
That gives you great scope to find a boat that's going to be good and comfortable below, a bit more luxurious that the current boat, and that you can have fun sailing.

Another way to look at it would be the distance in time to a safe port. So if you are sailing along, sailing, sailing and the VHF goes off with a weather warning for 12 hours time can you get somewhere safe within that time?
I don't know your area but there's plenty of safe places, aren't there?

Absolutely. The coast is littered with sheltered inlets, as well as ICW.

I do realize that most of the topics on this site aren't suited for me. You guys voyage around the world and I'm looking for a family-friendly party barge that will only rarely go over the horizon. My kids are ready to mutiny when it's been several hours without another swim call.

I have gotten surprised on the Gulf, years ago, on oil field supply boats when sudden storms came up. I do have respect for the Gulf lest anyone think otherwise. I hope my tongue-in-cheek intentions come through in my posts, although it's very hard to inflect tone in a written post.

Thanks for your response.
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Old 12-29-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Go look up an MY50, look at the design brief, and you will see it is not designed to cross oceans etc. Maybe yes, the winds I mentioned are on the lower side of what that boat will handle. BUT, if you look at the design etc, it does not come with, nor designed with safety lines around the boat. My 28' boat has better offshore design options than that one. Some others include the entry to the cabin is higher than the cockpit seats, so if the cockpit floods, the cabin does not. The MY and some others, the entry door is at the cockpit floor level. This is a design issue that could sink a boat in the ocean in BIG waves.

Look up the European design ratings that came about after the 79 fastnet race. This will help you understand why and how some boats should handle certain conditions vs others that will not. B rating as the Morris MY designs, and possibly your Morgan, altho suspect your morgan is a C, can handle up to IIRC 6 m seas, no place for a life raft, where as an A rated needs a life raft, and can handle 10m seas. Righting moment is higher for an A vs B vs C. C is inland protected, B is sorta protected, A is open water.
The number after is the number of occupants. Some boats will have an A6B8C10, meaning for open ocean, 6 max, semi protected, 8 max, protected, 10 max occupants on board.

I'm sure I have not explained the above correctly, but it gives you and idea. I think I have a link, will see if I can find the definitions for you to read. If I can not find them, I a sure Paulo knows where they can be found at.

Marty
Marty,

What is an MY50?

I can assure you that beyond any of the day sailors, which are not intended for world cruising, a Morris would be one of my first choices in construction and durability to take me anywhere. Course I could only afford a small Morris so unless cruising alone..... These boats are built like the proverbial "brick $hit house"...

Below is the fin keel for the Morris 36' DAY SAILOR., remember this is a DAY SAILOR not a boat intended for more than an occasional coastal overnight.. This keel is then bolted to a keel bed that is reinforced with solid fiberglass stringers directly glassed to the hull, not a glued in grid. These stringers have zero wood in them to rot out. Each u-shaped stringer beam has a wall thickness that exceeds 1/2" even for a very light displacement 36 foot day sailor. Vinylester resins are used throughout as are copious amounts of G10 and lots of solid fiberglass strong points. Chainplates are direct to solid glassed in fiberglass knees that extend to below the waterline. They are not supported by free floating screwed in bulkheads.. There are 13 keel bolts here with all but the aft two exceeding 1" and this is for a light displacement DAY SAILOR...


Here is a keel from a 36' production cruiser, just 5 bolts, and a significantly heavier displacement to the Morris 36 day sailor..


And another production cruiser of similar length and heavier displacement to the Morris DAY SAILOR. It has just eight 5/8" bolts.


To suggest that a Morris can't take ocean sailing is simply laughable to anyone who actually knows boat construction. As one who has been to both a "production boat" factory and the Morris yard, Able, Hinckley, Lyman-Morse etc. etc. etc.. it makes this even more amusing..

As an owner who has owned three "production" boats and who currently owns a CS, which was a higher level of production build quality, I can assure you there is little comparison in the robustness of build between our three production boats and the CS..

There are differences in construction techniques & how the boat feels on the ocean. Our CS-36 is significantly kinder than our C-36 was, so much so that even my wife who is not the most "observant" sailor constantly ribs me as to how we owned three of them..... I still like them but the creaking bulkheads in rough seas gave her an uneasy feeling. I can talk till I am blue in the face about how the boat is not coming apart but once she sailed on a boat with no creaking, done deal, and I've lost the WAF (wife acceptance factor) battle.. We have no such creaking or bulkhead/hull movement noises on the CS, none, even on a 33 year old boat. There are also differences in how the boats handle age/time over the long term. Being that I work on boats daily and get to see all the nooks and crannies I also see how boats of differing levels of build quality hold up to things like crazing, leaks, bulkhead movement, tabbing pops, rudder slop, chain plate leaks, hull deck joint leaks, stringer oooze/rot, keel smiles etc. etc.....

This is not to say a "production boat" can't do extended voyaging, they certainly can and do, but having owned three of them, delivered a number of others and had a bulkhead let go on one delivery, for which the owner tried to come after me on, I choose my boats a little differently now than I used to. This is admittedly partially driven by WAF on such things as "she feels Chloroxy" or "this boat won't creek & shudder when going to weather, right?"...

On our last "production boat" the screwed in bulkhead had some major issues that needed repair and this only after a season of ownership. The factory was very good about it but my wife was very uncomfortable and basically said "this is our last *******"..... Half the deck fittings were leaking after the first season.. Hell I really like the Catalina 42 but I know WAF would kill me on one....
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 12-29-2012 at 08:26 AM.
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  #163  
Old 12-29-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by JimMcGee View Post
who have experience on a lot of different boats[/B][/I] to comment on what boats have had a comfortable motion, what boats have been a miseryw.
That's their own subjective opinion.

All I know is that people can pound my boat. Buy she never pounds with me. So the boat or the sailor?

If the boat is pounding it is not being sailed properly.
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  #164  
Old 12-29-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
..
Here is a keel from a 36' production cruiser, just 5 bolts, and a significantly heavier displacement to the Morris 36 day sailor..


And another production cruiser of similar length and heavier displacement to the Morris DAY SAILOR. It has just eight 5/8" bolts.


...
That in fact does not look very strong. what is the brand of that 36ft boat?

Other production boats have much stronger attachments, look for instance to this Hanse 355, a light boat. Much larger ones:





Or this Salona 37 with the bolts directly on a stainless steel structure:





Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-29-2012 at 09:08 AM.
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  #165  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
There are differences in construction techniques & how the boat feels on the ocean. Our CS-36 is significantly kinder than our C-36 was, so much so that even my wife who is not the most "observant" sailor constantly ribs me as to how we owned three of them..... I still like them but the creaking bulkheads in rough seas gave her an uneasy feeling. I can talk till I am blue in the face about how the boat is not coming apart but once she sailed on a boat with no creaking, done deal, and I've lost the WAF (wife acceptance factor) battle.. We have no such creaking or bulkhead/hull movement noises on the CS, none, even on a 33 year old boat. There are also differences in how the boats handle age/time over the long term. Being that I work on boats daily and get to see all the nooks and crannies I also see how boats of differing levels of build quality hold up to things like crazing, leaks, bulkhead movement, tabbing pops, rudder slop, chain plate leaks, hull deck joint leaks, stringer oooze/rot, keel smiles etc. etc.....
Thanks Maine Sail, that's the kind of feedback I'm looking for.

When you say the motion of the CS is significantly kinder, is it just the noise and flexing of the structure, or is the motion of the boat itself more comfortable and if so in what way? Is it simply a matter of the structure being more ridgid or is there a difference in the underbody design?

Thanks,
Jim
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  #166  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Maine,

I may have the wrong size, but Morris does build, or had plans to build a 50' version of the 36' daysailer. If they did or did not is not the point. The whole line is designed as a daysailer/weekender. They are not designed to cross oceans!

Looked it up MY52 there is also a 29, 36, and 42 versions.

Morris DOES HAVE boats that will and HAVE sailed the 7 sea's, but this series is NOT designed to sail the 7 sea's!

Marty
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Last edited by blt2ski; 12-29-2012 at 11:26 AM.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Heck they wonrt even believe and expert like Jon and hes a delivery captain and has been on many of these boats and different types. Who better than to compare,

He gets challenged by graphs..pictures and theoreticals or that he pushes boats too hard. Imagine we have an expert..who is too expert

IMHO who knows better than someone who does it, whos sailed it...
This is always a strange nuance on forums...that some readers like me won't simply "believe an expert like Jon".

First, Jon would have to be essentially saying that what he's writing is indisputable, infallible gospel. I don't think he's saying that. He can certainly correct me if I'm wrong - but I think he's giving his opinion...which is undeniably hard-won through a tremendous and very respectable amount of experience. Yet, what he writes is his opinion, colored by a lot of nuance by his perspective and tastes, and the complex definitions of what we're trying to nail down (e.g. - "what is blue water really"?) - hence these debates.

Second, there would have to be this strange rule that only readers more experienced than Jon could dare question his opinion. And, again, I don't see where he himself holds out this standard.

If you've noticed, Jon is pretty patient about going through arguments with guys like me - pointing out areas where my assumptions are wrong, accepting certain things I argue if they hold water, etc.

He doesn't throw a hissy fit, incensed that "inferior sailors" dare question his papal decrees (like others have in the past). He just debates it - and we all learn a lot. That's cool.

Jon's a tremendously experienced sailor and we're lucky to have him around here. But he's a sailor...he can take a punch and swing back. He doesn't need a security detail. That's why I like the guy.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-29-2012 at 12:39 PM.
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  #168  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
..... I still like them but the creaking bulkheads in rough seas gave her an uneasy feeling. I can talk till I am blue in the face about how the boat is not coming apart but once she sailed on a boat with no creaking, done deal, and I've lost the WAF (wife acceptance factor) battle.. We have no such creaking or bulkhead/hull movement noises on the CS, none, even on a 33 year old boat....
I do off-shore races on a Pearson 365 Ketch, and on a Pacific Seacraft 37 Crealock before that. Both boats creak when the seas get up a bit. Within the context of this thread, I never really considered that a sign of a poor construction - especially since both of those are pretty well regarded blue water boats.

(Oh yeah, and the head and cabin doors are always sticking - but they still sail pretty well. We did win our last race against some very fast boats.)
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Heck they wonrt even believe and expert like Jon and hes a delivery captain and has been on many of these boats and different types. Who better than to compare,

He gets challenged by graphs..pictures and theoreticals or that he pushes boats too hard. Imagine we have an expert..who is too expert...
Thanks, Dave - but I hate to burst your bubble... I'm certainly no "expert" on sailing yacht design... (grin)

My knowledge of the subject is pretty paltry compared to someone like Jeff H, for example... and, I really appreciate the perspective of a guy like Paulo, he has a much broader understanding re design than I do...

All I can really offer is my personal anecdotal "impressions" of the variety of boats I've sailed... Those have informed my own opinions on what makes a good boat, of course, but I'll admit they are pretty subjective, and tailored to the type of sailing I prefer to do... However, they do tend to fall pretty much in line with the sort of recommendations of offshore sailors like John Harries, John Neal, Bill Siefert, Ferenc Mate', Beth Leonard, and so on - including the various authors of John Rousmaniere's book, which I've cited repeatedly here...

One of whom was some guy named Olin Stephens, he sounded like he might have had some idea what he was talking about... (grin)

Another highly recommended read is Steve Killing's YACHT DESIGN EXPLAINED... Even some guy named Bob Perry admits that one's pretty damn good... (grin)
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Jon's a tremendously experienced sailor and we're lucky to have him around here. But he's a sailor...he can take a punch and swing back. He doesn't need a security detail. That's why I like the guy.
Thanks, Smack... Too bad the feeling ain't mutual...

(grin, BIGTIME)
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