Production boats- justified bias? - Page 20 - SailNet Community
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post #191 of 265 Old 12-30-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Tommays, that Cal 29 main does look lovely and flat.

Sea Life
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post #192 of 265 Old 12-30-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
It's not a potential complication compared to sending people on deck in a storm to stuff around with trisails and storm jobs. The weight aloft is negligible.

Anyway a modern boat the storm tactics include the engine. Older boats don't because their power to weight ratio is worse.

What the old guys couldn't do was motor in a storm for 48 hours so they had no option but to sail. Now there's a myriad of options and the furling main adds to those because the sail can just be out a smidgen, half the area of a trisail, or whatever is wanted.

And there is increased safety with LESS complication as there's no three reefs to all tangle.

The only proviso is the furling main wants to be in good order, not a decade old.
I disagree regarding the use of the engine in storm conditions. In a storm you need to have the boat tied to a side (by the wind, not deeply heeled) and not bouncing around at the waves mercy and that's what happen if you are using an engine only. If you use the engine and sail in stormy conditions probably you are going to kill the engine. The engine is not made to work with more than 15º of heel and in stormy conditions, if you go upwind you will have more than that.

I agree with being a bad idea to go forward in a small boat on stormy conditions specially if you are alone but with automatic reefing plus a two lines third reef you don't need to do that. You don't need to go there also for setting a trysail because modern boats work well in extreme weather with only a small front sail, specially if it is a storm sail. Take a look:



Really bad weather with modern meteorology should not fall on a unprepared sailor. The boat should be ready before bad weather comes even if you have to wait some time for it.

Regarding furling booms, there are bad and good. This is a good one. I know that it works very well even on a performance boat like this one:



Regards

Paulo

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post #193 of 265 Old 12-30-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife
Even if I was sailing the Antartic I would still have the same sail rig as a modern production boat, better than mine only in that I would want in mast furling for the main.
... interesting.... I'd have thought with potentially harsher conditions one would not necessarily want the added potential complication.
Well, his would be the minority opinion among those like Skip Novak, or Hamish & Kate Laird, who sail to the Antarctic for a living...

Quote:

I knew exactly what I wanted and the formula was very pragmatic – keep it simple! The first meetings went something like this, “Do you want a bow thruster?” NO ‘Hydraluic furlers?” NO “Electric winches?” NO “Watermaker?” NO “Refrigeration?” NO, NO, NO, and so on. I am amused again and again when I see the astonished faces of the suppliers of equipment when they realize we intend to trim our sails and furl them - by hand!

Skip Novak News Pages




Expedition Sail - Antarctica
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post #194 of 265 Old 12-30-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Skip Novak uses a furling genoa and a slab reeled main ... No trisail, no storm jib. He has a few furlers, his boat isn't a production boat.

Anyway, you lot can do what ever you want. I really don't give a rats bum.

Sea Life
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Last edited by MarkofSeaLife; 12-30-2012 at 07:34 PM.
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post #195 of 265 Old 12-30-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Regarding furling booms, there are bad and good. This is a good one. I know that it works very well even on a performance boat like this one:



Regards

Paulo
Agreed...

I had a few glitches with the earliest versions of the Leisure-Furl, but Forespar seems to have gotten it pretty well sorted out, now... I still wouldn't want one with the motor in the boom, however - I think using the conventional arrangement with the downhaul led to a cockpit winch is a far more reliable system...

A far superior system to in-mast furling, IMHO... You certainly get a far more effective mainsail, that's for sure... Although, I must admit I've never tried the latest versions employing vertical battens, they probably are a bit of an improvement...

Still, a Leisure-Furl or similar, coupled with a hydraulic vang, is the way to go on bigger boats, IMO... Good ol' fashioned slab reefing is still the way to go otherwise, however... (grin)
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post #196 of 265 Old 12-30-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Thanks for the 20 plus pages ! I am new and trying to digest all this and learn. Can I ask for stability, do sailers have a world index for each type of boat? ISO 12217 ? Categogy A,B,C, 1,2,3 ? Do they hide this data? I was looking at the Chicargo to Mac. race. They are trying to make a (safe) boat rule. Is there a way to put a stamp or number to every boat to judge apples to apples ? You have upright and inverse stablity. You can build a huge pencil put a weight on the bottom a sail on the top. It will have a large phrf and not out run the weather. It will not capsize. Should I have some easy way to know this? THANKS, LOU
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post #197 of 265 Old 12-30-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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I disagree.
I have used them and hate them. Most boats with curlers have in mast. There's more than one reason, mostly because they fail less and are much cheaper. They are not production boat type equipment they are super yacht rich buggers stuff.

But that's an argument for another thread. I'm not into that one.
FWIW, I have had both and have used both offshore. Pluses and minuses to both. I have greater fear with the in-mast for the usual reason, which is what to do if it jams halfway out, but the reality is that while you get better sail shape, full roach, etc., with furling booms (and that ain't nothin' by the way), they are indeed more finicky, and halyards jam too with a sail halfway up/down! The in-mast is very easy to use, much easier than in-boom. Frankly, from a convenience standpoint, the in-boom is only marginally more convenient, if at all, than a well setup set of lazy jacks or a Dutchman system.

Interestingly, the only trouble I ever have had with either system was with the furling boom. Gooseneck broke halfway to Bermuda, so we couldn't furl or deploy the main. It broke when the sail was reefed, i.e., halfway out, so we had a problem for a short while, until we were able to drop it to the deck, which actually took a little doing. In contrast, after 5 seasons, our furling mast has never given us a lick of trouble, whether offshore, coastal or inshore. But truth be told, I do still "think" ("worry" probably is too strong) about that potential jam with the sail half out, even though it never has happened to us.
smackdaddy and outbound like this.

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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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I was looking at the Chicargo to Mac. race. They are trying to make a (safe) boat rule.
Like the Fastnet race tragedy? That race series was won first, second and Thrid by Australian boats.

So look at Sydney Hobart race tragedy in 1999 that race was won on handicap by a Beneteau.

So figures misrepresented on the Internet mean diddly-squat.

My take is modern is better. Everyone else says old is better, complicated is better, expensive is better.

You figure it out

Sea Life
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Although, I must admit I've never tried the latest versions employing vertical battens, they probably are a bit of an improvement...
I have partial vertical battens. You still lose a fair bit of performance. Sail is smaller than those on my sisterships with conventional mainsails, and while you don't have a hollow or "negative" roach as with early in-mast sails, I still don't have positive roach. I've been looking at Doyle's fully vertical battened furling mainsails, and they claim they support a full roach. I'm likely to give them a go when I replace my main, but I'll probably wait one more year before pulling that trigger.

Dan Goldberg

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post #200 of 265 Old 12-30-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Ask yourself this......can my boat meet the European cat A requirements that I posted earlier, and can you meet the ISAF off shore racing requirements......while not exact, still a reasonable copy can be found in cat 1 HERE! If so, you should be reasonably set for an offshore passage, in the boat of your choosing. Be it a production, one of the Morris daysailors I posted earlier about, or one of the offshore boats they build, or what ever the brand it may be be be it a true one off custom, semi custom ie Morris, or true production style boat.

To go off shore, takes a brain cell or two, unlike some of us with one brain electron.....

In the mean time, seaslugs won today, so off to the playoffs they go! I'm trying to figure out what I have here at home that I took off my 25 yr old Jeanneau, put it back on new years day, hopefully go for a sail, after taking of the 2800 or so xmas lights!

Marty

She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
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