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  #201  
Old 12-30-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Skip Novak uses a furling genoa and a slab reeled main ... No trisail, no storm jib. He has a few furlers, his boat isn't a production boat.

Anyway, you lot can do what ever you want. I really don't give a rats bum.
Didn't you sail around the world, Mark?
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  #202  
Old 12-30-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by Lou452 View Post
Thanks for the 20 plus pages ! I am new and trying to digest all this and learn. Can I ask for stability, do sailers have a world index for each type of boat? ISO 12217 ? Categogy A,B,C, 1,2,3 ? Do they hide this data? I was looking at the Chicargo to Mac. race. They are trying to make a (safe) boat rule. Is there a way to put a stamp or number to every boat to judge apples to apples ? You have upright and inverse stablity. You can build a huge pencil put a weight on the bottom a sail on the top. It will have a large phrf and not out run the weather. It will not capsize. Should I have some easy way to know this? THANKS, LOU
A class A boat means that conforms with a complicated set of measures some of them having to do with stability. Any modern 36ft boat should pass that conformity and a very well designed 30ft can manage that even if for that has to have a very good stability for its size. A good example is the A 31.

That kind of very narrow boat you describe with a lot of ballast deep down looks like the last AC monohull. A boat like that is great upwind but not very fast and very tricky to sail downwind. Not fast because it would be very difficult or impossible to reach planning speed, tricky because the boat will tend to balance from side to side, specially with lateral waves since it has not a substantial hull form stability to damp that movement. Besides these inconvenients a narrow boat will need always a lot of heel to sail and will offer a very small interior space.

Regarding accessing a boat stability the better instrument is a stability curve. On the interesting sailboat thread I have a post explaining how to read one regarding the meaningful data.

Some boat builders publish the stability curves, others will give them to you if you ask and others don't really like to give them but if you say that you won't buy the boat without seeing it, they will give it to you

They all have them because they are needed for the EC certification of the boat.

Regards

Paulo
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  #203  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Okay, after debating this issue for lo these many pages, and after deep genuflection on all the salient points made herein, I've come to a startling conclusion...

Production cruising boats will handle virtually any conditions on the ocean (aside from the true extremities). If you, as the sailor of said boat, can deal with said conditions, the boat will very likely not fail you.

Catalina, Hunter, Beneteau, Jenneau, whatever....it will keep you afloat just fine...if you've got the stones to ride it out.

Well, I guess that settles that. Now what?

(PS - I might be missing the large body of data that proves this conclusion wrong...but I've sure not seen anything like that. So, I gotta go with the facts.)
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  #204  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou452
Thanks for the 20 plus pages ! I am new and trying to digest all this and learn. Can I ask for stability, do sailers have a world index for each type of boat? ISO 12217 ? Categogy A,B,C, 1,2,3 ? Do they hide this data? I was looking at the Chicargo to Mac. race. They are trying to make a (safe) boat rule. Is there a way to put a stamp or number to every boat to judge apples to apples ? You have upright and inverse stablity. You can build a huge pencil put a weight on the bottom a sail on the top. It will have a large phrf and not out run the weather. It will not capsize. Should I have some easy way to know this? THANKS, LOU
Some boat builders publish the stability curves, others will give them to you if you ask and others don't really like to give them but if you say that you won't buy the boat without seeing it, they will give it to you

Regards

Paulo
Regarding the difficulty of obtaining stability curves for American production boats, I'm guessing it might just possibly be due to the fact that so many of them suck...? (grin)

There will be such data for boats that have been measured for the IMS... There is supposed to be a document or booklet available from US Sailing - PERFORMANCE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE NORTH AMERICAN IMS FLEET - but after a quick look at their website, I didn't notice any link to it, but it should be available somewhere...

As to Lou's question, Nigel Calder has a pretty thorough discussion of these issues in the first chapter of his CRUISING HANDBOOK... It includes a table of key parameters of a small assortment of about 2 dozen contemporary US & Euro boats between 38-42 feet... For example, the LPS of a Catalina 400 MK II is only 111 degrees, whereas for a Pacific Seacraft 40, it is an impressive 143... Numbers like that could someday translate to a VERY meaningful difference, say, somewhere between Newport, and Bermuda...

Last edited by JonEisberg; 12-30-2012 at 10:29 PM.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
....

As to Lou's question, Nigel Calder has a pretty thorough discussion of these issues in the first chapter of his CRUISING HANDBOOK... It includes a table of key parameters of a small assortment of about 2 dozen contemporary US & Euro boats between 38-42 feet... For example, the LPS of a Catalina 400 MK II is only 111 degrees, whereas for a Pacific Seacraft 40, it is an impressive 143... Numbers like that could someday translate to a VERY meaningful difference, say, somewhere between Newport, and Bermuda...
From the same book:



There is much more from a stability curve than an AVS. A boat can have a high AVS and not be a good sailing boat. Not saying that the Pacif Seacraft is not a good sailboat but it is better than the Vailant 40? Well certainly the one of the Vailant is better than the one of the Sabre 402 but without looking to the one of the Pacific Seacraft I would not know.

Certainly a sailing boat should have a good AVS, at least over 110 but ideally around or over 120, but that is not what defines the power and stiffness of the boat needed to sail in bad weather, specially upwind. what defines that is the first half of the curve, specially till 45º.

Also the value at 90º is very important and in some soft curves with a low max GZ and a high AVS the value at 90º can be a lot smaller than in boats with a hard curve and a high GZ and for instance an AVS of 115.

The max GZ and the downflooding point are also very important in what regards safety as also the area under the positive part of the curve. Other important factor is the proportion between the area under the positive and negative part of the stability curve.

Here you have the stability curve of the new Elan 400 that I believe will be a very good overall sailingboat and particularly good in upwind sailing:



This is a RM curve while the others are GZ curves, they are proportional and have the same AVS but to obtain a GZ from a RM curve we will have to divide the values by the boat displacement.

If you do that we can see that the Elan GZ values are much better for a similar AVS value, considering the Vailant 40. We can see that the Max GZ of the Vailant is about 0.7m and the one of the Elan is about 1.0m.



Regards

Paulo
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  #206  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Well let me wish all of you a happy New Year ! Thank you for your post ! I enjoy and like to see more that one side. I learn more when you all pick a different point of view. It is like a book that is interactive. I saw some of the 2012 volvo ocean race on netflix just the other day. It was kind of nice in some ways to see the pros have some issues, Sails getting jammed and such. They move the keels. Any Non-pros doing this?? It might be good for me to see some take it easy lay back and relax type of sailing. My next read will come off the book thread hear at sailnet. Maybe Adlard Coles, Nigel Calder , John V. , Gregg Nestor They will not take a question like you all. I like to hear about the one off custom boats... What a production boat can do.. Unless I am blessed beyond my dreams the one off custom boat will be out of my reach :-( Wish you all - skill, and great plans for the new year, Lou
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  #207  
Old 12-31-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Didn't you sail around the world, Mark?
Yes, I finished this circumnavigation two years ago and have since been in the Caribbean and up to New York, now heading back to the Caribbean and then to the Med. then Brazil for their Olympics.

I have done a half circumnavigation before, in 1998/99 on other people's boats including the Great Lakes to Nova Scottia and Israel to argentine.
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  #208  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by Lou452 View Post
... They move the keels. Any Non-pros doing this?? It might be good for me to see some take it easy lay back and relax type of sailing. ..
I like to hear about the one off custom boats... What a production boat can do.. Unless I am blessed beyond my dreams the one off custom boat will be out of my reach :-( Wish you all - skill, and great plans for the new year, Lou
Yes there are some cruisers having canting keels on their boats but they are very rich cruisers and normally on big yachts. One of the smaller that use it is that JP52 that I posted some posts back with a movie.

Not much to know about its use. The really reason they are not used on production boats is cost that is proportionally higher on a small boat than in a big yacht.

However there are some not very expensive racers using them and I mean racing minis. They cant them by hand but again not any that is a production boat either, at least to my knowledge.

A good year to you also and to all.

Regards

Paulo
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  #209  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Yes, I finished this circumnavigation two years ago and have since been in the Caribbean and up to New York, now heading back to the Caribbean and then to the Med. then Brazil for their Olympics.

I have done a half circumnavigation before, in 1998/99 on other people's boats including the Great Lakes to Nova Scottia and Israel to argentine.
That's what I thought. And you did your circ in a production boat...and didn't die? And I think you're actually still sailing it because it hasn't fallen apart yet?

Yep, I'd definitely consider you one of the experts.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by JimMcGee View Post
OK, those are some boats that would be great if I won the lottery. How about something for us mere mortals?

Seriously are there production boats in the mid-30 to mid-40 foot range that stand out in your mind for reasons good or bad -- the boat you mentioned that did so poorly in the Chesapeake comes to mind. And I wouldn't be surprised if the same brand is represented in both the best and worst categories.
Rather than focusing on particular boats, the point I've always been trying to make in these discussions is to think in terms of the "characteristics" of a design which contribute to seakindliness... There are many affordable boats out there which share the sort of hull form that John Harries describes, and of the boat's I've cited...

Honestly, I haven't sailed all that many different boats in the 30-40' range, most of my delivery work has always involved boats larger than 40'... C couple that come immediately to mind are the Bristol 35.5 and 38.8, and the Little Harbor 38, all very nice all-around boats... I've only sailed a Tartan 37 in smooth water, but it was a very well-mannered boat that certainly felt right... That's a boat with a very solid reputation, hard to go wrong with an S&S design, of course...

John Neal's list is as good a place to start looking, as any:

Mahina Expedition - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising

Again, when you're looking for characteristics in a boat, I think it's more helpful to focus on the design pedigree, rather than the builder... For example, as Minnewaska mentioned, the Cherubini-designed Hunters are an entirely different animal from the contemporary Hunter line... IMHO, it's hard to go wrong with a design from S&S, Bob Perry, Chuck Paine, Ted Hood and his proteges, and so on...

I'll just mention a couple of others in your size range, that while I've never sailed, have always intrigued me, and would be on my personal short list...

The Hood 38, from Wauquiez... Herb McCormick, who's probably sailed a wider variety of boats than anyone I know, sailed aboard one in Alaska years ago, and told me that would be on his short list, for a go-anywhere, affordable boat...

And, the Pretorian 35, also from Wauquiez, was Hal & Margaret Roth's last boat... That says something, in my book...

Chuck Paine's early designs, such as the Able Whistler... that has always looked like a wonderful boat, to my eye... the Morris 36/38 looks like a gem, a yacht broker friend of mine who's also sailed a bunch of different boats, rates that one as one of his favorites of all time... Of course, such a boat will still be out of the financial reach of most of us "mere mortals", unfortunately...

Sadly, most all of these kinds of boats will share one trait in common, beyond their seakindliness, comfort, safe decks, and decent performance under sail... Namely, their interiors - when compared to the overwhelming percentage of production offerings exhibited in Annapolis each October - will appear relatively small, cramped, and dark... Thus, for those having to convince a somewhat less enthusiastic spouse or girlfriend to come along the ride, or has a family to consider, it can be tough sell to have them appreciate the virtues of boats designed to SAIL, as opposed to those designed from the inside-out, and thus to "show well" in the side-by-side comparison taste test represented by the Boat Show...

Basically, I blame the rise to prominence of The Boat Show and Charter Industry as being responsible for all of the worst trends in modern sailing yacht design and production over the last couple of decades... (grin)
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