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  #211  
Old 12-31-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

My boat is Ocean "A" rated. For 13 passengers no less, which is comical. That's a ridiculous crowd for a day sail on the Bay.

Nevertheless, I admit, she will pound the fillings out of your teeth, if beating to windward with steep seas. She sails fast, is pretty stable in heavy wind, has an AVS of 116 and a reasonably protected, but drainable cockpit. I think she has every reason to qualify as a reasonable ocean passage platform. However, her big flat bottom and plumb bow are undoubtedly to provide for plenty of interior space and that clearly comes a some price. It's a price I'm willing to pay, as the conditions she might suffer in are very infrequent for our use. To date, I've had hundreds of dinner down below and guest aboard at some beautiful New England anchorage. When we cross to Bermuda, we might wish for a more sea kindliness, but think our production boat will do fine. The irony is, even serious ocean travelers seem to spend more time coastal cruising than crossing oceans.
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  #212  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife
It's not a potential complication compared to sending people on deck in a storm to stuff around with trisails and storm jobs. The weight aloft is negligible.

Anyway a modern boat the storm tactics include the engine. Older boats don't because their power to weight ratio is worse.

What the old guys couldn't do was motor in a storm for 48 hours so they had no option but to sail. Now there's a myriad of options and the furling main adds to those because the sail can just be out a smidgen, half the area of a trisail, or whatever is wanted.

And there is increased safety with LESS complication as there's no three reefs to all tangle.

The only proviso is the furling main wants to be in good order, not a decade old.
I disagree regarding the use of the engine in storm conditions. In a storm you need to have the boat tied to a side (by the wind, not deeply heeled) and not bouncing around at the waves mercy and that's what happen if you are using an engine only. If you use the engine and sail in stormy conditions probably you are going to kill the engine. The engine is not made to work with more than 15º of heel and in stormy conditions, if you go upwind you will have more than that.
Agreed, reliance upon an engine as a strategy to deal with storm conditions is not a good plan... Didn't work out very well for the BOUNTY, I seem to recall...

Heavy weather is precisely the time when engines aboard sailboats are most likely to have problems... The abandonment of the yacht SANCTUARY enroute to Bermuda in November '11 is a classic example, seawater apparently shorted out their starter/electrics when they attempted to fire up the engine, and they were then left without a means to recharge their batteries, satellite phone, etc, which turned out to be a major contributor to their decision to abandon...

And, a week or so later, TRIPLE STARS was abandoned after the loss of one of her crew, and reportedly having problems with her autopilot, and in-mast furling system...

Last edited by JonEisberg; 12-31-2012 at 11:59 AM.
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  #213  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
That's what I thought. And you did your circ in a production boat...and didn't die? And I think you're actually still sailing it because it hasn't fallen apart yet?

Yep, I'd definitely consider you one of the experts.
Smack, expert regarding what? To show that an Oceanis 39 is well capable of circumnavigate if one chose carefully the right seasons and evade high latitudes?

I have a fellow countryman that had circumnavigate solo 2 times with the same boat, a Bavaria 36, I know of at least another guy that had solo circumnavigated solo on another one, heard about a Frenchman that was doing it and have a friend that had crossed the Atlantic several times and sailed extensively with one.

Sure, production boats, even smaller ones that the one Mark has can do it with a reasonable safety margin but that does not mean that they are the most appropriated, comfortable or safe boats to do that, even in that length class.

I know very well the Bavaria 36, had made about 15 000nm in one and I know also Mark's boat since a fiend had one on my marina and I used to sail in it and also sailed together with them.

I know for instance that the Bavaria 36 can go closer to the wind and faster than the Oceanis 39 in fair weather (we sailed many times together) but I also know that kind of boats (with a low B/D ratio) have problems going against a lot of sea close to the wind even with a lot of wind and they slam if keep too close to the wind. Both boats have the same kind of hull, with not much rocker and entries that cannot be considered fine.





Of course as Mark says his does not slam sailed by him, and for that you have just to go away from the wind and have a more open course but that will translate in a worst performance, meaning a worse velocity made good against the wind.

Both boats have similar keels and the Oceanis 393 has a better D/B ratio (27% and 29%) even if both boats cannot compare for instance regarding that and particularly stifness with Elan 400 that I posted before. This will make the Bavaria a more tender boat and in fact one of the Bavaria characteristics was that he sailed with a lot of heel, at least if one wanted to go fast. With a lot of waves I doubted that the Bavaria could be faster upwind. Pretty sure that it would be slower.

Anyway I can assure you that a boat like the Elan 400, or my own boat will pound less and sail faster against the wind than the Bavaria 36 or the Oceanis 393.

Bottom point, I believe that Mark is a very experienced sailor but that does not make him necessarily an expert about the best boats to circumnavigate. Any boat designer with a lot of experience in sailing and designing boats will have a more expert opinion about that.

Anyway I don't believe that there is only a type of boat suited for bluewater cruising and that's why very experienced NA come with very different solutions. I believe that almost all mass produced boats with over 33ft can do it with an adequate margin of safety (if rigged and prepared for that) I believe also that there are better boats to do that then others, even considering the several personal options regarding sailing style and living lifestyle.

Regards

Paulo
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  #214  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
...
Basically, I blame the rise to prominence of The Boat Show and Charter Industry as being responsible for all of the worst trends in modern sailing yacht design and production over the last couple of decades... (grin)
Not really that. The number of boats sold for charter are much less than the ones sold to private owners. I guess you can blame it on the utilization most sailors give to their sailboats. They are adjusted to that.

But regarding that you can still find lots of different boats adapted to different types or sailing, more or less living aboard oriented, more or less efficient regarding sailing, upwind or downwind more or less balanced. I guess you have for all tastes and all sailors when before the choice was much more limited. I think a wider choice is a good thing, it permits to give to each sailor what he wants and needs regarding cruising and sailing.

Increase of beam and shape of hull have also been greatly influenced by the abandon of shapes determined by a racing rating (IRC, ORC) to shapes that come from the experience in solo open racing boats, boats that are made to be solo sailed. that makes sense and have contributed to cruising boats more easy to sail and more adapted to the short crews that today normally sail cruising boats.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

I am continually amazed at people making statements about passage making capabilities of their production yachts. Capsize ratios and stability indexes don't tell the whole story. Construction details are overlooked in these. When your hull is oil canning like crazy, your hatches leaking due to flex in your cabin top, and your bulkheads are coming loose from their tabbing all those ratios don't mean a thing. It still comes down to where you are sailing. If you get caught in some bad weather hitting the gulfstream or one of the stream's eddies that trip to Bermuda just might be a little more than your boat can handle. Running your engine to get out of trouble can have some issues also.

I used to think a lot like most of the posters here. After I experienced a 3 day gale (35 to 55 knots true, braking 20-25 foot seas, short duration waves) in the North Atlantic way offshore my opinions have changed. Dropping off a 20 foot wave repeatedly changes your perspective on boat construction. The custom built aluminum pilothouse I was in survived this with no damage. It probably was due to the ring frames, longitudinal stringers, crash bulkheads, engine in a a gasketed watertight compartment etc. Our friends, in a well found production boat one day behind us, detoured to Bermuda to miss most of the storm. In the 24 hours they were in it they endured major structural damage to their boat with crew injuries. The hull flexed like crazy, bulkheads separated, the nav station separated from the hull, the sole broke etc. They survived but the boat was a total loss. Their boat, an Ericson 46, had some pretty good numbers, was well maintained, and well equipped. Specifications for the Ericson 46
LOA 45.8 ft. LOD 45.8 ft.
LWL 35.0 ft. Beam 13.2 ft.
Draft 7.2 ft. Displaces 31,500 lbs.
Ballast 16,500 lbs. Sail Area 1,064.0 sq. ft.
Performance Indicators
D/L 328 B/D52 % SA/D 17.1
Comfort 39.1 Capsize 1.67 L/B 3.5

Bottom line, you can sail around the world in most production boats. If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time most of the boats can get you into trouble. If you are sailing offshore of the east coast of US your chance of encountering those wrong places is pretty good in the spring and late fall when low pressure systems coming across the continental US are unpredictable. I'm not saying that most production boats won't make it and aren't suitable for passage making, it is just that there are risks involved. Some boats aren't suited for those extremely rough conditions that we all hope we don't encounter.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Smack, expert regarding what? To show that an Oceanis 39 is well capable of circumnavigate if one chose carefully the right seasons and evade high latitudes?

I have a fellow countryman that had circumnavigate solo 2 times with the same boat, a Bavaria 36, I know of at least another guy that had solo circumnavigated solo on another one, heard about a Frenchman that was doing it and have a friend that had crossed the Atlantic several times and sailed extensively with one.

Sure, production boats, even smaller ones that the one Mark has can do it with a reasonable safety margin but that does not mean that they are the most appropriated, comfortable or safe boats to do that, even in that length class.

I know very well the Bavaria 36, had made about 15 000nm in one and I know also Mark's boat since a fiend had one on my marina and I used to sail in it and also sailed together with them.

I know for instance that the Bavaria 36 can go closer to the wind and faster than the Oceanis 39 in fair weather (we sailed many times together) but I also know that kind of boats (with a low B/D ratio) have problems going against a lot of sea close to the wind even with a lot of wind and they slam if keep too close to the wind. Both boats have the same kind of hull, with not much rocker and entries that cannot be considered fine.





Of course as Mark says his does not slam sailed by him, and for that you have just to go away from the wind and have a more open course but that will translate in a worst performance, meaning a worse velocity made good against the wind.

Both boats have similar keels and the Oceanis 393 has a better D/B ratio (27% and 29%) even if both boats cannot compare for instance regarding that and particularly stifness with Elan 400 that I posted before. This will make the Bavaria a more tender boat and in fact one of the Bavaria characteristics was that he sailed with a lot of heel, at least if one wanted to go fast. With a lot of waves I doubted that the Bavaria could be faster upwind. Pretty sure that it would be slower.

Anyway I can assure you that a boat like the Elan 400, or my own boat will pound less and sail faster against the wind than the Bavaria 36 or the Oceanis 393.

Bottom point, I believe that Mark is a very experienced sailor but that does not make him necessarily an expert about the best boats to circumnavigate. Any boat designer with a lot of experience in sailing and designing boats will have a more expert opinion about that.

Anyway I don't believe that there is only a type of boat suited for bluewater cruising and that's why very experienced NA come with very different solutions. I believe that almost all mass produced boats with over 33ft can do it with an adequate margin of safety (if rigged and prepared for that) I believe also that there are better boats to do that then others, even considering the several personal options regarding sailing style and living lifestyle.

Regards

Paulo
Our best friends have a Bavaria 36. Shes a nice boat. Quick and easily sailed. Tender like our C&C though. easily reefed and you have to do it early to keep it on its feet. Ultra thin keel and rudder. I have been in it in rough weather and it does pound some. I Nice interior for the size boat and well made. Nice light wood feel vs plasics. I like that the transom isnt open, but can be swung down. I am not fond of the Volva engine. Tankage would need to be increased for offshorre sailing. Lotta fun to sail. Looks like a good deal for the money it costs.

Dave
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  #217  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post




Of course as Mark says his does not slam sailed by him, and for that you have just to go away from the wind and have a more open course but that will translate in a worst performance, meaning a worse velocity made good against the wind.
would you mind not insinuating I can not sail, you F'ing peanut.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg
...
Basically, I blame the rise to prominence of The Boat Show and Charter Industry as being responsible for all of the worst trends in modern sailing yacht design and production over the last couple of decades... (grin)
Not really that. The number of boats sold for charter are much less than the ones sold to private owners. I guess you can blame it on the utilization most sailors give to their sailboats. They are adjusted to that.

But regarding that you can still find lots of different boats adapted to different types or sailing, more or less living aboard oriented, more or less efficient regarding sailing, upwind or downwind more or less balanced. I guess you have for all tastes and all sailors when before the choice was much more limited. I think a wider choice is a good thing, it permits to give to each sailor what he wants and needs regarding cruising and sailing.

Increase of beam and shape of hull have also been greatly influenced by the abandon of shapes determined by a racing rating (IRC, ORC) to shapes that come from the experience in solo open racing boats, boats that are made to be solo sailed. that makes sense and have contributed to cruising boats more easy to sail and more adapted to the short crews that today normally sail cruising boats.

Regards

Paulo
One can't help but notice that most of the boats you cite in these discussion tend to be considerably more "performance oriented" than those that many of us Americans sail, and tend to go off cruising on... I think that reflects a fundamental distinction between the mindset of most European builders, and their American counterparts - which, of course, is primarily a function of how the respective "markets" actually use their boats...

Which, in turn, is largely a function of geography... It makes perfect sense that there is a higher premium on more weatherly, seakindly boats in your part of the world, where so much more of the sailing is done in open, unprotected waters. It's no surprise that the French, for example, have produced the sort of sailors they have, when pretty much the only sailing that can be done on their Atlantic coast, is to head out into the Bay of Biscay...

America's coastline - at least along the East and Gulf coasts - is unique in that so much of our sailing can be done in protected, sheltered waters... Two of our most popular cruising grounds - the Chesapeake, and Long Island Sound - are for the most part quite placid and tame bodies of water, with safe shelter never far away... A far cry from the sort of sailing one does along your coastline, or in a place like South Africa, for example...

And then, of course, we have the Intracoastal Waterway, which given a bit of luck, makes it possible to transit the entire length of the Eastern seaboard without ever taking a drop of seawater on deck... (or, without ever hoisting or unfurling a sail, for that matter)

We really do do a different type of "sailing" over here... I'm hard-pressed to imagine much of a market on your side of the pond for a boat like an Island Packet, for example - it simply wouldn't suit the sort of sailing most Europeans are compelled to do... Over here, however, it's the Dream Boat for many a Snowbird's winter sabbatical, with it's ability to plow down the ICW with the comfort and economy of a trawler, and a shoal draft suitable for exploring the shallow waters of the inland waters of the East coast or the Bahamas...

If Europe had an Intracoastal Waterway like ours, I bet you'd see much more of a market for boats where performance under sail takes a back seat to comfort under power, as well...

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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Jon,

While not an ICW, they do have some canals that can be toured on over there, many are motorized barges, or smaller sailboats with masts that can be brought down by one or two people. So to a degree, many boats are designed to handle the waterways that one sails on. There is probably also a reason why on the west coast of Wa and OR as to why it is called the graveyard of the pacific too! While cape Hatteras has sunk a number of boats, the columbia river bar has sunk a lot, as have some of the other bars, and the rocky coast with no where to hide per say. The east coast from what I can tell would be a cake walk to sail/motor up and down as compared to this side of NA.

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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Smack, expert regarding what? To show that an Oceanis 39 is well capable of circumnavigate if one chose carefully the right seasons and evade high latitudes...
He's sailed tens of thousands of blue water miles, for several years, in a somewhat "standard" production cruising boat. That certainly puts him in expert territory as to insight on how a production boat handles sailing in the oceans...around the world. And, I'll let him speak for himself, but he seems pretty pleased with it - despite how some may insist that shouldn't be possible.

At some point, this whole argument becomes too academic or too subjective. As to the OP - there is definitely bias against production boats - but I certainly don't see where the facts hold that out...especially when there are many, many sailors like Mark and Michael proving the bias wrong pretty much every day out there.

There are always "better boats"...always...regardless of what you have. But I see no evidence that modern production boats are not capable of sailing blue water - pretty comfortably and safely even.

Mark can correct me if I'm wrong.
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