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  #221  
Old 12-31-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
would you mind not insinuating I can not sail, you F'ing peanut.
I don't insult nobody and I don't like to be insulted. See if you cab manage your behavior. nothing that I said implies or insinuates that you don't know how to sail. I have said that you are certainly a very experienced sailor. Regarding that thing about motoring through storms in a sailboat as a storm tactic, I don't agree that is the best way to do it and no insult was meant, merely show disagreement. Do you think that a difference of opinion mean or insinuate that you don't know how to sail?

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-31-2012 at 08:32 PM.
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  #222  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

I've decided my production boat is fully capable and I'm leaving now!! Who's coming?

Of course, we just finished dinner and a couple bottles of great wine and are heading down to our favorite local for a cocktail (walking distance), so I should consider this again in the morning.

Happy New Year all !!!!
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  #223  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Our best friends have a Bavaria 36. Shes a nice boat. Quick and easily sailed. Tender like our C&C though. easily reefed and you have to do it early to keep it on its feet. Ultra thin keel and rudder. I have been in it in rough weather and it does pound some. I Nice interior for the size boat and well made. Nice light wood feel vs plasics. I like that the transom isnt open, but can be swung down. I am not fond of the Volva engine. Tankage would need to be increased for offshorre sailing. Lotta fun to sail. Looks like a good deal for the money it costs.

Dave
Yes, I agree with what you say. I don't know how was equipped your friend's boat but maybe we can say here something that was not made clear about production boats. Some brands have just some options but others have from lead keel, to epoxy hull, bigger mast, different masts, different size of winches, more winches, different rigging, back stay tensioner, removable stay and a lot more options.

In some brands a top boat is very different from a basic boat and also a lot more expensive. when I bought the Bavaria 36 in 2002 I thought that it was going to be my final boat so I equipped it the way it seems to fit my tastes and needs. The result was 35 000 euros of extras on a 100 000 euros boat.

Of course the boat was not comparable with a basic one since the money was not wasted on the interior but on a bigger draft, a lead keel, a not furling mast with a boom with automatic reefing (more expensive than the standard furling mast), a third reef, better sails, better electronics and so on.

So, even regarding apparently similar boats from the same brand there could be substantial differences in quality and performance that are expressed in the difference in PHRF the boats have that can be quite considerable.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-31-2012 at 08:24 PM.
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  #224  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
He's sailed tens of thousands of blue water miles, for several years, in a somewhat "standard" production cruising boat. That certainly puts him in expert territory as to insight on how a production boat handles sailing in the oceans...around the world. And, I'll let him speak for himself, but he seems pretty pleased with it - despite how some may insist that shouldn't be possible.


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Quote:
Jon's a tremendously experienced sailor and we're lucky to have him around here. But he's a sailor...he can take a punch and swing back. He doesn't need a security detail. That's why I like the guy. Smackdaddy Post #147
You could substitutes Marks name for John here.

Marks got plenty of experience and he doesnt need a security detail either by your own own words and standards.

His opinion on its own is well respected and he has plenty of experience. Just saying
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  #225  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I don't insult nobody and I don't like to be insulted. See if you cab manage your behavior. nothing that I said implies or insinuates that you don't know how to sail. I have said that you are certainly a very experienced sailor. Regarding that thing about motoring through storms in a sailboat as a storm tactic, I don't agree that is the best way to do it and no insult was meant, merely show disagreement. Do you think that a difference of opinion mean or insinuate that you don't know how to sail?

Regards

Paulo
Grow a sense of humour young lad.
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  #226  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by Ninefingers View Post
Grow a sense of humour young lad.
No, I am not a young lad. That is your sense of humour

regards

Paulo
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  #227  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Since age has come up. Do we see production sailboats trying to appeal to a muture crowd ? More comfort easy to sail with less crew. Is the mean age for the average sailor on the rise. Is this due to less disposable income across the world. Is it TV. potato chips, I phones, I pads, PC chat tweets taking time interest and funds away from sailing? Who buys and sails the boats in blue water? Will humans keep sailing in blue water? Per capita are the numbers going up or down? boat yards will follow the trend ?> It would be hard to lead or make a trend. Build a boat and they will come. I put a lot of questions together. I think they are related. Regards Lou
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Since age has come up. What is the average age of the blue water sailor? The boats have to reflect the age and ability of the sailor? Per cap is the number of blue water sailors going up or down. The boat yards have to follow these trends right? The boats will be made to please the crowd right? Has the TV,PC,tweets and potato chips made blue water dreams yesterdays news. Will humans still want to go in numbers large enough to justify building boats? Lots of questions from my I think they are related. Regards, Lou
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  #229  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by Sanduskysailor View Post
I am continually amazed at people making statements about passage making capabilities of their production yachts. Capsize ratios and stability indexes don't tell the whole story. Construction details are overlooked in these. When your hull is oil canning like crazy, your hatches leaking due to flex in your cabin top, and your bulkheads are coming loose from their tabbing all those ratios don't mean a thing. It still comes down to where you are sailing. If you get caught in some bad weather hitting the gulfstream or one of the stream's eddies that trip to Bermuda just might be a little more than your boat can handle. Running your engine to get out of trouble can have some issues also.

I used to think a lot like most of the posters here. After I experienced a 3 day gale (35 to 55 knots true, braking 20-25 foot seas, short duration waves) in the North Atlantic way offshore my opinions have changed. Dropping off a 20 foot wave repeatedly changes your perspective on boat construction. The custom built aluminum pilothouse I was in survived this with no damage. It probably was due to the ring frames, longitudinal stringers, crash bulkheads, engine in a a gasketed watertight compartment etc. Our friends, in a well found production boat one day behind us, detoured to Bermuda to miss most of the storm. In the 24 hours they were in it they endured major structural damage to their boat with crew injuries. The hull flexed like crazy, bulkheads separated, the nav station separated from the hull, the sole broke etc. They survived but the boat was a total loss. Their boat, an Ericson 46, had some pretty good numbers, was well maintained, and well equipped. Specifications for the Ericson 46
LOA 45.8 ft. LOD 45.8 ft.
LWL 35.0 ft. Beam 13.2 ft.
Draft 7.2 ft. Displaces 31,500 lbs.
Ballast 16,500 lbs. Sail Area 1,064.0 sq. ft.
Performance Indicators
D/L 328 B/D52 % SA/D 17.1
Comfort 39.1 Capsize 1.67 L/B 3.5

Bottom line, you can sail around the world in most production boats. If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time most of the boats can get you into trouble. If you are sailing offshore of the east coast of US your chance of encountering those wrong places is pretty good in the spring and late fall when low pressure systems coming across the continental US are unpredictable. I'm not saying that most production boats won't make it and aren't suitable for passage making, it is just that there are risks involved. Some boats aren't suited for those extremely rough conditions that we all hope we don't encounter.
With respect, I'm not sure I understand your basis for these conclusions. First of all, many people look at an Ericson as an example of the kind of boat that is so much better than today's production boats. I always find that kind of thing hilarious, as Ericson's, C&C's, Irwins, Cal., etc., were the production boats of their day, yet critics of today's boats regularly point to those as examples of how a boat ought to be constructed.

More importantly, however, as far as I know, I don't believe there are mass reports of production boats collapsing in on themselves during offshore passages up and down the U.S. east coast. Please don't misunderstand my comment as suggesting that they are the best, most hardily built boats, or that they're "better" than higher-end boats, or have a better motion at sea than other designs. But the suggestion that the bulkheads collapse, hatches pop out, etc., particularly while plying the waters up and down the U.S. east coast as you suggest, does not seem supportable to me.

Not picking a fight, just seizing on something that I see as a bit of an extreme position.

Respectfully,
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  #230  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanduskysailor View Post
...

.... (35 to 55 knots true, braking 20-25 foot seas, short duration waves) in the North Atlantic way offshore my opinions have changed. Dropping off a 20 foot wave repeatedly changes your perspective on boat construction. .... Our friends, in a well found production boat one day behind us, detoured to Bermuda to miss most of the storm. In the 24 hours they were in it they endured major structural damage to their boat with crew injuries. The hull flexed like crazy, bulkheads separated, the nav station separated from the hull, the sole broke etc. They survived but the boat was a total loss. Their boat, an Ericson 46, had some pretty good numbers, was well maintained, and well equipped.
....
I'm not saying that most production boats won't make it and aren't suitable for passage making, it is just that there are risks involved. Some boats aren't suited for those extremely rough conditions that we all hope we don't encounter.
I am also confused about your post. You say that an old Ericson 46 was caught in a storm and suffered structural damage. That's a 35/40 year old boat and in fact I believe boats with that age are far away from their new condition. Many think that Fiberglass does not lose strength properties with time but that is not true and even if the boat was well maintained it was still a 35 year old fiberglass boat. The Aluminum boat where you endure the storm was also a 35/40 year's old boat? Why do you think a modern new production boat would not be more solid than a 40 years old fiberglass boat?

There are risks involved in everything we do. When people go out of their houses they risk more than when they stay at house but people go out of their house everyday. In our life we are continuously managing risk and accepting the ones that are reasonable.

If you only sail to bluewater on a boat that can endure all the conditions the sea can create than you don't sail because only a ship is able to survive those conditions.

Sailors in small boats like ours (small sailing boats) should make everything possible to avoid sailing in bad weather and chose the right season and the right latitude to cross oceans. Thinking that on an Halberg Rassy or on a Malo one is considerably more safer than in a same sized Jeanneau or a Bavaria and on account of that be more forgiven about the season or the latitude one chose to sail can have tragic consequences. The difference, if any, is not meaningful regarding what the sea can come up with.

Regards

Paulo
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