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  #231  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

See bleow

Last edited by Sanduskysailor; 01-01-2013 at 01:36 AM. Reason: On second thought, sophistry was never my strong suit.
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  #232  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

On reflection my new years resolution is to quit getting into discussions like this. It seems every 2-3 years I get sucked into this or similar themed discussion. Being hard headed I usually fail to realize that I don't have the experience or intellectual capacity to contribute to this topic.
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  #233  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielgoldberg View Post
With respect, I'm not sure I understand your basis for these conclusions. First of all, many people look at an Ericson as an example of the kind of boat that is so much better than today's production boats. I always find that kind of thing hilarious, as Ericson's, C&C's, Irwins, Cal., etc., were the production boats of their day, yet critics of today's boats regularly point to those as examples of how a boat ought to be constructed.

,
With all due respect the big 3 Hunter over 52,000 sailboats), Catalina ( over 60,000 sailboats, and Jennaue ( over 75,000) sailboats) have been produced.

I doubt all the Eriksons, C&Cs, Sabres, and Tartantogether equal any one of these totals.

The big 3 boats have been mass produced in assembly line and modern factories and were always striving to do this lower the price points for the average sailor.

To say the Erikson, C&C, Tartan of the 1980's were on the same level price wise, quality of construction, trim and accompanying accesories wise as the Hunters, Catalinas, Jenneaus of the 1980 I dont think is correct.

Look how many of the older Catalinas, Jennaues and Hunters from teh 80 are still for sale % to the number produced to show you whether they have stood the test of time. Look also at the resale values that should give you somewhat of a clue of the big 3 compared to Sabre, C&C, Tartan Erikson of the boats built in the !9890-1990 range

Again I am no denigating any of the production boats, Ceratinly the Cherubini Hunters were special boats for instance. They were builkt for different price points, Just like cars are.
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  #234  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanduskysailor View Post
Being hard headed I usually fail to realize that I don't have the experience or intellectual capacity to contribute to this topic.
I sure do feel like this sentiment applies to me, only I lack the wisdom and judgment to make the New Year's resolution!
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  #235  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
With all due respect the big 3 Hunter over 52,000 sailboats), Catalina ( over 60,000 sailboats, and Jennaue ( over 75,000) sailboats) have been produced.

I doubt all the Eriksons, C&Cs, Sabres, and Tartantogether equal any one of these totals.

The big 3 boats have been mass produced in assembly line and modern factories and were always striving to do this lower the price points for the average sailor.

To say the Erikson, C&C, Tartan of the 1980's were on the same level price wise, quality of construction, trim and accompanying accesories wise as the Hunters, Catalinas, Jenneaus of the 1980 I dont think is correct.

Look how many of the older Catalinas, Jennaues and Hunters from teh 80 are still for sale % to the number produced to show you whether they have stood the test of time. Look also at the resale values that should give you somewhat of a clue of the big 3 compared to Sabre, C&C, Tartan Erikson of the boats built in the !9890-1990 range

Again I am no denigating any of the production boats, Ceratinly the Cherubini Hunters were special boats for instance. They were builkt for different price points, Just like cars are.
I think you're mixing metaphors a little. Take Sabre and Tartan (of certain eras anyway) out of the equation, as they were built to a different price point and definitely have better fit and finish than today's BeneHuntAlina.

70's and 80's C&Cs, Ericsons, Irwins, O'Day and the like we're no better built than today's "productions boats," as that phrase is being used in this thread. They just weren't. Consider only the number of voids in their hulls/decks, and the absurd way hardware, including high-load fittings, once were just screwed/bolted into cored decks. These are just examples by the way. Today's construction techniques are much better, when comparing apples to apples (i.e., 1980 C&C to 2013 Jeanneau).

In terms of "design," as opposed to construction quality, the older production boats really don't hold a candle. Jon's point about how modern designs employed by Henderson, Farr, Barret-Racqpeau, et al. are less conducive to offshore seakindliness than some other designers is an interesting one (to me anyway), but there's no reasonable debate to be had, in my opinion, about whether the engineering and design of a 2013 Jeanneau or Hanse compares to that of a 1980 C&C.

In the same way that there's no comparison between an H-R or Morris and a Beneteau or Catalina, there's also no comparison between a 2013 Beneteau and a 1980 C&C (or a 1980 Beneteau for that matter!).
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
The big 3 boats have been mass produced in assembly line and modern factories and were always striving to do this lower the price points for the average sailor.

To say the Erikson, C&C, Tartan of the 1980's were on the same level price wise, quality of construction, trim and accompanying accesories wise as the Hunters, Catalinas, Jenneaus of the 1980 I dont think is correct.
It's difficult to address this without committing the sin of over-generalization, but I think that is basically correct...

I'd cite a boat like the First Series boats designed by German Frers, built by Beneteau in the 80's... IMHO, those are a great example of a "go anywhere" production boat, a 38 or 42 would definitely be on my short list if I ever go to a bigger boat... There's good reason Ferenc Mate' included them in his book THE WORLD'S BEST SAILBOATS, along with the likes of Alden, Able, Cherubini, Hinckley, Swan, etc. when it was published in 1986... (Amazing, out of the 20 builders in that book, only 5 or 6 are still building sailboats, mass production rules, nowadays)

I've had a very close look through a First 42 that's done the Bermuda Race several times, and have poked around the recent offerings from Beneteau at the boat shows over the years... While Beneteau is still doing a very nice job these days, and are offering a product that will suit the overwhelming percentage of their "market" admirably, their current boats are not a "product" that I would care to attempt the sort of voyaging the Danish couple who own SOL have done with their "outmoded" stick-built Benny from the 1980's...

Very impressive sailing, here, well worth a look... Interesting argument in favor of a windvane over an autopilot that I'd never thought of before - When you get close to the vicinity of the Magnetic North Pole, your autopilot will become pretty worthless, while your vane won't be affected at all (grin)

Northwest Passage

SOL hauled for the winter in Nuuk, Greenland... If you're gonna sail from Svalbard to South Georgia, around Cape Horn and then over the top of North America via the NW passage, I'll take the old-fashioned underbody without a big flat section forward, a hull-to-deck joint capped with a perforated aluminum toerail, and a solid glass hull sans sexy picture windows, every time...


Last edited by JonEisberg; 01-01-2013 at 10:16 AM.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

A prior post referred to the service life of a vessel. Given the potential differences due to cored v solid hull, lay up schedules, scantlings, glass v unobtainium, stress fatigue, thermal contraction/expansion fatigue,deformation fatigue, water migration and the host of other factors resulting in decline in boat strength- one would think the small run production boats may fair better over time. Would most appreciative of the opinions of our senior members. ? How old a boat will you take offshore ? What factors enter your decision.? Does lg. run production v one off v. small run enter your decision? . All our boats are "used" once we buy or build them. Should buyers expect a more limited service life that's significantly different for current production boats?
Tx. best to you and yours this up coming year.

Last edited by outbound; 01-01-2013 at 10:22 AM.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielgoldberg View Post
I think you're mixing metaphors a little. Take Sabre and Tartan (of certain eras anyway) out of the equation, as they were built to a different price point and definitely have better fit and finish than today's BeneHuntAlina.

70's and 80's C&Cs, Ericsons, Irwins, O'Day and the like we're no better built than today's "productions boats," as that phrase is being used in this thread. They just weren't. Consider only the number of voids in their hulls/decks, and the absurd way hardware, including high-load fittings, once were just screwed/bolted into cored decks. These are just examples by the way. Today's construction techniques are much better, when comparing apples to apples (i.e., 1980 C&C to 2013 Jeanneau).

In terms of "design," as opposed to construction quality, the older production boats really don't hold a candle. Jon's point about how modern designs employed by Henderson, Farr, Barret-Racqpeau, et al. are less conducive to offshore seakindliness than some other designers is an interesting one (to me anyway), but there's no reasonable debate to be had, in my opinion, about whether the engineering and design of a 2013 Jeanneau or Hanse compares to that of a 1980 C&C.

In the same way that there's no comparison between an H-R or Morris and a Beneteau or Catalina, there's also no comparison between a 2013 Beneteau and a 1980 C&C (or a 1980 Beneteau for that matter!).
Daniel////good to see you back by the way

I think maybe I wasnt being clear. I wasnt comparing the C&C, Sabre, Tartan of 1980 vs todays production boat. I was comparing apples and apples by by comparing it to the build quality of the 1980 Hunters, Catalinas, and Benne. Thus the refernece to Cherubini exception and the resale values.

I think the same applies today and dont put the modern Tartan, Sabre and C&C in the same category as the mass production boats. A 2011 C&C, Tartan , Sabre, while I Know Paulo may disagree about design characteristics which he knows more about, is a significant differnt quality boat than the mass produced ones. Thus the price differences/
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Something I've been wondering about which this thread hasn't covered...

What about livability? Of course, the best go-anywhere boat from an engineering standpoint would have no windows and be built like a tank. (Can't leak if there are no openings to the weather or sea.) But when we step away from the theoretical, we have to have a boat that someone can actually stand to be on, and God forbid, possibly enjoy sailing.

My question is about the climate you intend to sail. If I were in the extreme North or South where the weather is horrible and cold, I want the best weatherproof shelter I can find. However, between those latitudes where the majority of humanity lives and thrives- it gets hot and humid. Weatherproof also means breeze-proof.

I see a lot of boat with almost zero ventilation. While this would be vastly superior for seaworthiness, can anyone stand to go below during the daytime?

Where would you trade some inherent safety for livability, design-wise?

I love the general design of the Endeavors / Irwins I see for sale. Lots of opening ports for ventilation, and open cabins for air circulation. Obviously not the boat one would feel most secure in the Roaring 40s, but likewise I cannot imagine spending time in the Caribbean or even the Southern US, in a boat without a lot of opening ports.

I lived two years in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba working tugboats. Sleeping at night went like this: Lie in bed sweltering. Wait ten minutes for your sweat to completely soak your bedding so that you are laying in a sopping sponge of your own sweat. Once completely wet, evaporation would begin to cool you off enough to sleep.

I don't care to live like that anymore. So what desgin factors are you guys willing to compromise perfection in order to have a boat you want to be on?
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielgoldberg View Post
Interestingly, the only trouble I ever have had with either system was with the furling boom. Gooseneck broke halfway to Bermuda, so we couldn't furl or deploy the main. It broke when the sail was reefed, i.e., halfway out, so we had a problem for a short while, until we were able to drop it to the deck, which actually took a little doing. In contrast, after 5 seasons, our furling mast has never given us a lick of trouble, whether offshore, coastal or inshore. But truth be told, I do still "think" ("worry" probably is too strong) about that potential jam with the sail half out, even though it never has happened to us.
That's what I've always considered to be the primary drawback to the Leisure-Furl, the incredible weight of the boom on a bigger boat... The fittings at the gooseneck, and vang, have got to be massively overbuilt, the loads can be enormous...

Sailing that Trintella 50, with such a massive main, one of my biggest fears was always an accidental jibe... And, with the deeply swept-back spreaders on that rig (another modern production boat trend I'm not a fan of on a cruising boat), sailing deep downwind that was always a possibility...

I can't imagine having to deal with a broken gooseneck on a L-F boom, on a boat of that size... You were lucky no one was hurt, in that episode...
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